W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-sweo-ig@w3.org > March 2008

RE: checking "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web" comments... OPEN QUESTION GenDocUri

From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:05:05 +0000
To: Leo Sauermann <leo.sauermann@dfki.de>
CC: Richard Cyganiak <richard@cyganiak.de>, Susie M Stephens <STEPHENS_SUSIE_M@LILLY.COM>, "public-sweo-ig@w3.org" <public-sweo-ig@w3.org>, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Danny Ayers <danny.ayers@gmail.com>, Norman Walsh <Norman.Walsh@Sun.COM>, "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>, Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <9674EA156DA93A4F855379AABDA4A5C6119EDA1AB4@G5W0277.americas.hpqcorp.net>

Hello Leo,

Firstly, apologies for not responding sooner... I merely noted for myself that you'd both be on the call and moved on, missing the request further down the message. Also, your message did not reach me until after our most recent telcon (13th March).

> Cygri summed it up, as we have *possibly contradicting* views
> on it, we would appreciate a comment before the telco,
> especially *facts* why to use your suggestion [1] and not our
> current one, here is a summary [2]:

I think that you give a pretty good list of them already at:
https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/feedback/index.htm#i1

<snip/>

> Richard's and my view is:
> "do content negotiation at the thing uri and 303 either to
> the rdf variant or the html variant"
> BECAUSE it is simpler to explain and works as well as the
> proposed GenDocUri way.

I don't think I can give you a concensus explaination on behalf of the TAG other than the TAG concurred with Tim at their F2F in the case were the redirection targets are infact variants of the same generic resource (eg. they are alternate renderings of the same information). That gave rise to ACTION-117 [1] on Tim to communicate that resolve to you. Unfortunately the records of our meeting are not yet assembled otherwise I would refer you to the relevant fragment of discussion.

Best regards

Stuart
--
[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/117

Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks RG12 1HN
Registered No: 690597 England
--

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leo Sauermann [mailto:leo.sauermann@dfki.de]
> Sent: 13 March 2008 15:52
> To: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol)
> Cc: Richard Cyganiak; Susie M Stephens;
> public-sweo-ig@w3.org; Dan Connolly; Danny Ayers; Norman
> Walsh; tag@w3.org; Tim Berners-Lee
> Subject: Re: checking "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web"
> comments... OPEN QUESTION GenDocUri
>
> Stuart, all,
>
> I will attend. I found the telco info on the /group page.
> Richard Cyganiak also told me he will attend.
>
> Beforehand....
>
> I see a strong need to discuss the issue of having a "generic
> document URI", which is currently not covered in the "cool
> uris ftsw" document.
>  From our point of view, it makes things more complicated and
> it is possible to implement http-range-14 correct and valid
> without it, as did already some services.
>
> TimBl and Cygri started a discussion about it on #SWIG where
> TimBl requires us to change the document considerably[1],
>
> 21:11:51
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T21-11-51>
> <timbl> cygri, I know -- I would like the document to
> describe tyhe solution where there is a URI for the generic document
>
>
> Cygri summed it up, as we have *possibly contradicting* views
> on it, we would appreciate a comment before the telco,
> especially *facts* why to use your suggestion [1] and not our
> current one, here is a summary [2]:
>
> 22:06:28
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-06-28>
> <cygri> timbl, i'm not sure i understand why the difference
> matters so much, but let's ignore that for a minute
>
> 22:06:57
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-06-57>
> <cygri> let me see if i understand the main thing that you
> want to have changed in the doc
>
> 22:07:27
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-07-27>
> <cygri> timbl: currently, we say: "do content negotiation at
> the thing uri and 303 either to the rdf variant or the html variant"
>
> 22:08:28
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-08-28>
> <cygri> you want us to say: "303-redirect from the thing uri
> to a generic document uri; conneg at the generic document
> uri, and serve the appropriate variant directly from there"
>
> 22:08:34
> <http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-08-34>
> <cygri> right, timbl?
>
>
> Richard's and my view is:
> "do content negotiation at the thing uri and 303 either to
> the rdf variant or the html variant"
> BECAUSE it is simpler to explain and works as well as the
> proposed GenDocUri way.
>
>
> kind regards
> Leo
> [1] http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T21-11-51
> [2] http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-02-14.html#T22-06-28
>
> It was Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) who said at the right time
> 12.03.2008 17:50 the following words:
> > Leo, Richard,
> >
> > We really have to improve the bandwidth of this dialog -
> which is getting over loaded by context retoration at each
> message exchange.
> >
> > Can either or both of you be available to attend a TAG
> teclon on 20th March say 1:15pm Boston time (bearing in mind
> that the US has sprung forward and not all of Europe has).
> >
> > TimBL, DanC:
> > Can you both confirm your availability to discuss this on
> 20th March.
> >
> > [Amy: if necessary can you confirm on behalf of Tim - thx]
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Stuart
> > --
> > Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road,
> Bracknell, Berks
> > RG12 1HN Registered No: 690597 England
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Leo Sauermann [mailto:leo.sauermann@dfki.de]
> >> Sent: 12 March 2008 09:45
> >> To: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol)
> >> Cc: Richard Cyganiak; Susie M Stephens; public-sweo-ig@w3.org; Dan
> >> Connolly; Danny Ayers; Norman Walsh; tag@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: checking "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web"
> >> comments... would like more time
> >>
> >> It was Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) who said at the
> right time
> >> 15.02.2008 12:11 the following words:
> >>
> >>> Hello Leo, Richard,
> >>>
> >>> Following our telcon meeting yesterday TimBL and DanC did
> >>>
> >> more work to
> >>
> >>> clarify their rendering of the diagram originally discussed
> >>>
> >> around [1,2].
> >>
> >>> They have produced the following which I hope will
> >>>
> >> 'unblock' whatever
> >>
> >>> is causing us a problem wrt to item #2 in the threaded
> >>>
> >> discussion below.
> >>
> >>> _    http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/tag/HTTP303.png_
> >>> <http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/tag/HTTP303.png>
> >>>     _http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/tag/HTTP303.graffle_
> >>>
> >>> Note: i don't thing this diagram visually distinguishes
> >>>
> >> between URIs
> >>
> >>> and resources, a distinction which I think is useful and
> >>>
> >> was apparent
> >>
> >>> in the whiteboard diagram/photo at [2].
> >>>
> >>> Would you find it useful to come to a TAG telcon to talk
> >>>
> >> through a bit
> >>
> >>> how we (well... you)  finalise this document? I have regrets from
> >>> TimBL to TAG telcons through to and including 13th March, so we'd
> >>> either have to make progress in his absense or wait until he was
> >>> available. DanC is on the hook to scribe our meeting on
> >>>
> >> 21st Feb... so
> >>
> >>> that would be a possibility - or we will all be meeting F2F in
> >>> Vancouver 26-28th Feb and we could try to have you join us
> >>>
> >> by phone if
> >>
> >>> that would work.
> >>>
> >> Richard and I have looked at the diagram and discussed
> about it, the
> >> approach as depicted on above image [3] is confusing us,
> is seems to
> >> be different from the photo at [2], and also to what is written in
> >> http-range-14.
> >>
> >> In the *worst* way, I could intentionally mis-interpret [3] as the
> >> following:
> >> == worst case===
> >> * URIthing identifying the thing
> >> * URIgen identifying a forwarder uri
> >> * URIrdf identifying a rdf document
> >> * URIhtml identifying a html document
> >>
> >> On a GET to URIthing
> >> it makes a  303 redirect to URIgen,
> >> which will do another 303 (based on conneg) to either, URIrdf or
> >> URIhtml.
> >> == /worst case ==
> >>
> >> 3 http roundtrips - this is not what you had in mind!?
> >>
> >> I would guess that other readers may also mis-interpret
> the provided
> >> graphic [3] and therefore would NOT use it as is in the document.
> >>
> >> My understanding of the decision was:
> >> == we assumed ==
> >> Assuming we start with graphic [4], the
> content-negotiation and 303
> >> redirect is handled:
> >> On a GET to URIthing
> >> make a 303 redirect from URIthing to URIrdf or URIhtml based on
> >> conneg, defaulting to "URIhtml" for browsers that do not
> pass RDF as
> >> "accept"
> >> == /we assumed==
> >>
> >> YES?
> >>
> >> Out of sheer curiosity, I wonder if using a method
> indicated on [5]
> >> may also work for semantic-web redirects... but we will
> stick to 303
> >> in the document, we only wanted to explain the http-range-14
> >> decision.
> >>
> >> [3] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/tag/HTTP303.png
> >> [4] http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/img20071212/303.png
> >> [5] http://www.w3.org/TR/chips/#cp5.2
> >>
> >>
> >> best
> >> Leo
> >>
> >>> In terms of closing our outstanding comments - seeing finalised
> >>> diagrams alongside the accompanying narrative is important
> >>>
> >> to us. We
> >>
> >>> would like to review the document in as near final form
> as possible.
> >>> FWIW that also means resolving (or removing) the dangling todo's
> >>> particularly if they are going to add text to the document.
> >>>
> >>> Lastly, we ran out of time on our call before I could
> >>>
> >> establish where
> >>
> >>> the rest of the TAG were satisfied by the changes that you
> >>>
> >> had made on
> >>
> >>> section 3.1
> >>>
> >>> I hope that all makes sense. Basically,
> >>> - we'd be happy to invite you to a segment of one of our
> >>>
> >> meetings in
> >>
> >>> order to get he interaction bandwidth up - please let me
> >>>
> >> know if you
> >>
> >>> would like to do that;
> >>> - we'd like to review the document in as near final form (in
> >>> particular in thr form in which if we say 'good-to-go'
> from our POV
> >>> then it is published exactly as is at that point - modulo
> >>> boilerplate/status changes). If that is the state that
> you believe
> >>> that you are already in, please let us know.
> >>>
> >>> BR
> >>>
> >>> Stuart
> >>> --
> >>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0109.html
> >>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0061
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road,
> >>>
> >> Bracknell, Berks
> >>
> >>> RG12 1HN
> >>> Registered No: 690597 England
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >>
> >>>
> >
>
>
> --
> ____________________________________________________
> DI Leo Sauermann       http://www.dfki.de/~sauermann
>
> Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer
> Kuenstliche Intelligenz DFKI GmbH
> Trippstadter Strasse 122
> P.O. Box 2080           Fon:   +49 631 20575-116
> D-67663 Kaiserslautern  Fax:   +49 631 20575-102
> Germany                 Mail:  leo.sauermann@dfki.de
>
> Geschaeftsfuehrung:
> Prof.Dr.Dr.h.c.mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender) Dr.
> Walter Olthoff Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats:
> Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
> Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
> ____________________________________________________
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:08:50 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:08:51 GMT