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meeting record: 2009-03-19 RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:30:09 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090319122833.05020778@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The record of todays' RDF-in-XHTML Task Force discussion is

  http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

19 Mar 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-03-05

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Mark Birbeck, Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny,
          Steven Pemberton, Ben Adida

   Regrets
          Michael Hausenblas

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * [5]Topics
         1. [6]Action Review
         2. [7]Primer Aside
         3. [8]Test Cases
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________


   <ShaneM> CURIE Javascript:
   [10]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript

     [10] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript

   Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs

Action Review

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the
   prefix is defined

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for
   @prefix. [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   Manu: that's test 9004

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to look at
   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
     [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon
   or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the
   correct result
   ... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the
   right approach
   ... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the
   original mail didn't realize
   ... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396
   ... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is
   different
   ... affects test 114
   ... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site

   <benadida> content is href="../../../../../../../../../../"

   Manu: the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but
   that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396
   ... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986
   ... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I
   believe
   ... add the note in the SPARQL result

   Ben: sounds good

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
   namespace [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

Primer Aside

   Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice
   at the time
   ... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed
   ... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in

   Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off
   ... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better

   Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced
   Primer
   ... we're getting some interesting screen casts
   ... e.g. the Drupal one
   ... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa
   markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly"

   <Steven> Go Ben!

   <markbirbeck> [25]mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility

     [25] http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility

Test Cases

   <msporny> [26]rdfa-test-harness

     [26] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

   Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix
   value
   ... see design test suite / unapproved
   ... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes
   ... we should pick one

   Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok?

   <markbirbeck> I'm afraid I have a 5th....

   <ShaneM> note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems
   wrong

   Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the
   colon and sometimes not

   Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion

   Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace

   <markbirbeck> I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but
   what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some
   interesting things.

   <markbirbeck> e.g.:

   <markbirbeck> prefix="xsd: [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#,
   dcterms:[28]http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media:
   [29]http://purl.org/media#, audio:[30]http://purl.org/media/audio#"

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
     [28] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
     [29] http://purl.org/media
     [30] http://purl.org/media/audio

   <markbirbeck> Note the commas.

   <markbirbeck> But also allowed would be:

   Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon

   <ShaneM> ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2"

   <markbirbeck> prefix="'xsd':
   '[31]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#',
   'dcterms':'[32]http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media':
   '[33]http://purl.org/media#',
   'audio':'[34]http://purl.org/media/audio#'"

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#'
     [32] http://purl.org/dc/terms/'
     [33] http://purl.org/media#'
     [34] http://purl.org/media/audio#'

   <markbirbeck> Note the quotes.

   Ben: 9001 uses colon and whitespace

   option 1 - from 9001: prefix="xsd:
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#
   dcterms:[36]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media:
   [37]http://purl.org/media# audio:[38]http://purl.org/media/audio#"

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
     [36] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
     [37] http://purl.org/media
     [38] http://purl.org/media/audio

   option 2 - from 9002: prefix="xsd:
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
   dcterms:[40]http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media:
   [41]http://purl.org/media# ; audio:
   [42]http://purl.org/media/audio#;"

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
     [40] http://purl.org/dc/terms/;
     [41] http://purl.org/media
     [42] http://purl.org/media/audio#;

   option 3 - from 9003:
   prefix="xsd=[43]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms =
   [44]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=[45]http://purl.org/media# audio
   = [46]http://purl.org/media/audio#"

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
     [44] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
     [45] http://purl.org/media
     [46] http://purl.org/media/audio#%3E

   option 4 - from 9004: prefix="xsd
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms
   [48]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media [49]http://purl.org/media# audio
   [50]http://purl.org/media/audio#"

     [47] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
     [48] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
     [49] http://purl.org/media
     [50] http://purl.org/media/audio

   <msporny> I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here,
   Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and
   JSON-like syntax.

   <msporny> HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that
   we've chosen

   <markbirbeck> I disagree.

   <markbirbeck> Having a breaking character between pairs is not
   complex!

   Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future
   extensibility

   <ShaneM> markbirbeck: not between pairs - having the same character
   as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I
   think.

   Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad
   ... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs
   ... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex
   syntaxes every day
   ... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me
   that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format

   Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me

   Mark: that was the second alternative
   ... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does
   use comma to separate the pairs

   <benadida> rel="dc:license cc:license"

   Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing
   space-separated properties in @rel
   ... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel]
   ... e.g. 9001
   ... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things

   <markbirbeck> xsd:h...

   Ben: 9001 mixes in some extra spaces

   Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ?

   Ben: yes

   <Steven> I like the use of "="

   Mark: this looks too much like URLs

   <Steven> because it reads like it is

   Mark: I can live with 9002
   ... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '='

   Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator

   <benadida> med:ia/image

   Ben: so no space around '='

   Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra
   space, e.g., around '='
   ... the syntax should be forgiving

   Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now

   Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs

   <benadida> Option 5: Mark's JSON-like

   Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional
   separate between the pairs
   ... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the
   pairs

   Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs

   <Steven> [51]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;

     [51] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;

   <Steven> is a valid URL

   Ben: poll is not a commitment

   <msporny> +1 for prefix="a <SEPARATOR> b <PAIR_SEPARATOR> x
   <SEPARATOR> y"

   Ralph: prefer option 3 '='

   <ShaneM> More importantly...
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url

     [52] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd

   Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator

   Manu: so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2)

   Shane: prefer option 3

   Steven: prefer option 3

   Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3

   Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2
   ... can't live with 3

   Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh

   Ben: could allow space around the '='

   Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs

   Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing

   Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values

   <markbirbeck> x="y=z"

   Mark: and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I
   think we're asking for trouble using it inside values

   <ShaneM> x="Y:Z"

   Ben: that seems to argue for option 1
   ... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an
   attribute value

   Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation

   Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets
   long it becomes very confusing
   ... so I count that as an existing bad pattern

   Manu: worth floating this to mail?

   <markbirbeck> +1 to Ben

   Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok
   ... next meeting in 2 weeks; on 2 April

Summary of Action Items

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to look at
   [55]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
   namespace [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [55] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [64] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for
   @prefix. [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [65] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [66] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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