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RE: Request for feedback on SKOS Last Call Working Draft

From: Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:24:11 -0800
To: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>
CC: Alistair Miles <alistair.miles@zoo.ox.ac.uk>, "Ralph R. Swick" <swick@w3.org>, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, "public-swd-wg@w3.org" <public-swd-wg@w3.org>, "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, "'Felix Sasaki'" <fsasaki@w3.org>
Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019E23AD58@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Hi Antoine,

Yes, as I said the SKOS model is technically correct, accurate, and complete. The issue is what users and implementations do with it. I think the main concern I have is that SKOS Reference makes quite clear that you can have multiple labels with related-but-not-identical language tags. It is just that, having gone out of its way to say that 'en' != 'en-US', it doesn't further clarify that the presence of an 'en' tag is allowed imply a match with e.g. 'en-AU' or 'en-NZ', if the latter are not provided as distinct labels.

Does that make sense?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Antoine Isaac [mailto:aisaac@few.vu.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:00 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison
> Cc: Alistair Miles; Ralph R. Swick; Richard Ishida; public-swd-
> wg@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org; 'Felix Sasaki'
> Subject: Re: Request for feedback on SKOS Last Call Working Draft
> 
> Hi Addison,
> 
> Thanks for the explanation, which makes a bit clear what I had
> understood from [1]:
> "Matching different language tags is important for a number of
> applications. According to BCP 47 'en' can be said to match 'en-
> GB'."
> 
> If I understand well, there are applications that could do this
> filtering, and if they use data which was not intended for
> filtering (that is, data including language tag variation, because
> their original context of application was concerned with that),
> then there could be trouble.
> 
> But maybe this is not so much trouble in fact: that kind of
> matching does not amount to producing new RDF data (in your example,
> a new triple ex:walkingPath skos:prefLabel "sidewalk"@en. ), does
> it?
> If the data stays the same, and if as you say it is technically
> valid, then there is no possible inconsistency with what the SKOS
> model specifies.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Antoine
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/

> 
> 
> > Hello Alistair,
> >
> > Thanks for the note back.
> >
> > I'm aware of the SPARQL function: I helped the WG craft the text
> about it. The query function might turn out to be a problem and I
> may not have given the right feedback in my last email. Let me
> explain.
> >
> > My concern is that, if you have a triple like:
> >
> > ex:walkingPath rdf:type skos:Concept;
> >   skos:prefLabel "sidewalk"@en-US;
> >   skos:prefLabel "pavement"@en
> >
> > ... then SKOS rightly asserts that "en" and "en-US" are different
> languages exclusive of one another. This implies that one must
> include a separate prefLabel for every possible language tag
> variation one wishes to support. This is not generally the
> intention when applying language tags.
> >
> > So my example doesn't say whether the label for "en" covers a
> user who speaks "en-GB" or "en-AU" or "en-NZ" (for example). Those
> are all different languages not specified. Typically, a request for
> the label from the SKOS description of an ontology will contain the
> user's fully qualified language preference--that is, they are
> specifying the MOST information that they care to provide about
> their language. The matching scheme in RFC 4647 for that is called
> "lookup" and it falls back (a request for "en-GB" in my example
> would find "pavement", labeled as "en"). That is, a SKOS file
> contains what we I18N folks would call a "resource bundle" or
> "message catalog".
> >
> > In any case, SKOS is technically correct, but I think my advice
> would be to add some note clarifying that a natural language label
> defined in SKOS should be considered to apply to any request not
> masked by some other label. It is possible but very difficult to
> construct using SPARQL langMatches, whose purpose is actually
> different.
> >
> > So I guess I'd request notes in the Reference and Primer
> clarifying that, although (for example) "en" and "en-US" are
> considered to be different, one may consider a shorter language tag
> that is a "prefix" (by language tag standards) to match a longer
> "language range" in a request. That is, you don't need to supply
> "en-AU" if it is not different from "en".
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > Addison Phillips
> > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >
> > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > It is an architecture.
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Alistair Miles [mailto:alistair.miles@zoo.ox.ac.uk]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:27 AM
> >> To: Phillips, Addison
> >> Cc: Ralph R. Swick; Antoine Isaac; Richard Ishida; public-swd-
> >> wg@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org; 'Felix Sasaki'
> >> Subject: Re: Request for feedback on SKOS Last Call Working
> Draft
> >>
> >> Dear Addison,
> >>
> >> Thanks for this. Just to make sure I'm completely clear, are you
> >> suggesting we add a note to the SKOS Reference and/or SKOS
> Primer
> >> regarding the basic filtering scheme defined in RFC4647? What
> >> exactly
> >> would you suggest we say about it?
> >>
> >> I note that the SPARQL query language defines a function
> >> langMatches
> >> [1] which is supposed to implement the RFC4647 filtering scheme.
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Alistair
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#func-langMatches

> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 08:25:50AM -0800, Phillips, Addison
> wrote:
> >>> Hmm... I hadn't been paying attention to this thread, until
> just
> >> now. The following exchange about language tags disturbs me
> >> somewhat. One of the parts of IETF BCP 47 (the language tagging
> >> RFCs) describes language tag matching (RFC 4647). Unsurprisingly,
> >> there is more than one form of matching. For the sort you are
> >> describing below, the typical matching scheme is called
> "filtering"
> >> and the value supplied as the "range" (that is, in the triple)
> >> matches tags that are equal-to-or-longer-than the supplied value.
> >> That is, "en-GB" (en-UK is invalid) does not match "en" and
> neither
> >> does "en-US".
> >>> Section 5.6.5 in the SKOS last call document is not wrong; it
> >> just doesn't recognize one of the language tag matching schemes
> as
> >> described in BCP 47. Each different language tag is taken to be
> a
> >> different token. The problem that this might entail is that
> >> language tags are not always predictable. There exist a range of
> >> variation in a user's choice of subtags that one might wish to
> >> match without having prior knowledge of the full range of
> variation
> >> in the tags present in a document.
> >>> My suggestion would be to reference filtering in RFC 4647 as at
> >> least a permitted implementation choice. A triple like this:
> >>> ex:color skos:prefLabel "colour"@en ;
> >>>    skos:prefLabel "color"@en-US.
> >>>
> >>> ... would make all English tagged prefLabels spelled as
> "colour"
> >> save for US English tagged ones. Falling back from en-?? To en
> >> strikes me as a bad idea, by contrast, unless done explicitly by
> >> the user. Consider a more complex tag that conveys a lot of
> >> information: "zh-cmn-Hant-TW" (Chinese,Mandarin,traditional
> script,
> >> Taiwan). You don't really want it to match just any Chinese tag
> (or
> >> why use the big complicated one).
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Addison Phillips
> >>> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> >>> Editor -- IETF BCP 47
> >>>
> >>> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >>> It is an architecture.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: public-i18n-core-request@w3.org [mailto:public-i18n-
> core-
> >>>> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Ralph R. Swick
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:29 AM
> >>>> To: Antoine Isaac
> >>>> Cc: Alistair Miles; Richard Ishida; public-swd-wg@w3.org;
> >> public-
> >>>> i18n-core@w3.org; 'Felix Sasaki'
> >>>> Subject: Re: Request for feedback on SKOS Last Call Working
> >> Draft
> >>>> At 02:22 PM 2/26/2009 +0100, Antoine Isaac wrote:
> >>>>> if an application does matching of en-UK and en-GB to en,
> then
> >> the
> >>>> following RDF triples:
> >>>>> ex:color skos:prefLabel "color"@en-US ;
> >>>>>   skos:prefLabel "colour"@en-GB.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> entail:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ex:color skos:prefLabel "color"@en ;
> >>>>>   skos:prefLabel "colour"@en.
> >>>> I believe you're making an application-specific choice here.
> >>>> Where in the SKOS data model (spec) is this entailment
> >>>> endorsed?  I could imagine an application that may find it
> >>>> convenient to implement language searching by acting as
> >>>> if your example were endorsed but it doesn't feel appropriate
> >>>> to me in general to state such an entailment.
> >>>>
> >>>>> This is incompatible with the SKOS specifications for
> >> prefLabel
> >>>> [2].
> >>>>
> >>>> Which is one of the reasons it's an inappropriate entailment :)
> >>>>
> >>>>> [2]
> >> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20081001/#L1567

> >> --
> >> Alistair Miles
> >> Senior Computing Officer
> >> Image Bioinformatics Research Group
> >> Department of Zoology
> >> The Tinbergen Building
> >> University of Oxford
> >> South Parks Road
> >> Oxford
> >> OX1 3PS
> >> United Kingdom
> >> Web: http://purl.org/net/aliman

> >> Email: alistair.miles@zoo.ox.ac.uk
> >> Tel: +44 (0)1865 281993

Received on Wednesday, 4 March 2009 18:24:59 GMT

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