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meeting record: 2009-01-22 RDFa telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:34:50 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090122123315.051a6d28@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org

The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] is ready.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

22 Jan 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0088.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-01-08

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Shane McCarron, Ralph Swick, Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
          Ben Adida

   Chair
          Manu

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Review
         2. Feedback on RDFa from WHATWG/HTML5
         3. Finalize behavior of @prefix
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

Action Review

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace
   [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does
   not set object based on TC 123. [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to look at
   [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
     [13] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   Manu: first part of the comment was a misunderstanding of the test
   ... I explained how we do negative results in the test suite
   ... second part of the comment came from use of old saxon parser
   ... there is a choice of which RFC to follow and they result in
   different xpath URIs
   ... it's a strange issue with XSLT-based implementations

   Shane: does the XSLT spec reference the wrong thing?

   Manu: no, it gives a choice of RFCs
   ... I need to check the XSLT spec more closely
   ... Sergey said he'd talked with the implementor and there isn't yet
   an updated implementation that he could use

   <msporny> [14]Re: Problematic test cases in the RDFa test suite
   [Manu2009-01-22]

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0092.html

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   Manu: I've written to Jamie
   ... he hasn't responded, so I propose to close it for now

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   Manu: I've spent some time on this and it looks like a lot of work
   ... Slashdot doesn't generate clean HTML4

   Manu: I don't want to have to fix all their templates; it will be a
   large patch that they may not accept
   ... I won't have the time to generate this massive patch
   ... would need more buy-in from Slashdot
   ... I think I've done as much as I can

   Shane: Slashdot is an interesting community but it doesn't really
   affect the broader community
   ... Drupal on the other hand would affect a broader community and
   makes more sense for our attention

   Manu: Wordpress would be another likely candidate

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

Feedback on RDFa from WHATWG/HTML5

   -> [27]Discussion with Ian and Henri about HTML5+RDFa (part 1/2)
   [Manu 2009-01-19]

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0075.html

   -> [28]Discussion with Ian and Henri about HTML5+RDFa (part 2/2)
   [Manu 2009-01-19]

     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jan/0076.html

   Manu: there was less opposition than I'd expected
   ... but demonstrated use cases are important
   ... may need to assume less familiarity with RDF when describing the
   use cases
   ... details of RDFa aren't familiar to most folk I've talked with;
   CURIE seemed to trigger most concerns
   ... Henri Sivonen said he'd be willing to accept RDFa if it dropped
   CURIEs
   ... other concerns about @rel and @rev unrelated to RDFa

   Manu: @rev historically misused so some feeling that it should be
   removed from HTML5

   Shane: next step?

   Manu: I thought I'd add "Why" to each use case
   ... present the use cases with Why to WHATWG
   ... Ian H said he'd take a thorough look at this
   ... I have already started adding Whys to the wiki

   Mark: I wrote a [29]blog post about some of these topics
   ... I mention a few bits of history, back to an event in 2004
   ... crossing-over with Accessibility and device independence/content
   adaptation
   ... I did a presentation on behalf of the XHTML WG talking about
   @role
   ... other presenters proposed extensions to HTML for content
   adaptation
   ... they liked the direction the XHTML WG was taking
   ... these supporters haven't been writing to the HTML WG list
   ... but the fundamental philosophical difference over extensibility
   between the two communities may be the overriding factor

     [29] http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility

   Manu: we had the same discussion in Microformats about RDFa
   ... some, like Toby, have moved to RDFa; not all are yet posting
   ... discussion allows people to see the arguments and make up their
   own minds

   Mark: thanks for continuing to pursue this

   Manu: so I'll continue on my project to add Why to each use case and
   then point the HTML WG / WHATWG at this

Finalize behavior of @prefix

   Manu: we've talked about splitting @prefix from the token
   specification mechanism
   ... Ivan says he sees @prefix as an analog to @xmlns
   ... Mark has suggested that where @prefix is used (HEAD or BODY)
   could be significant

   Mark: one of the problems with the simple analog is that this forces
   us into the simple hierarchical model
   ... a long time ago there were discussions with (Reuters?) about
   using RDFa
   ... one of their use cases was documents, especially small ones --
   consider a twitter post -- that may require lots of namespace
   declarations
   ... would like an xinclude-like mechanism
   ... there's currently no way to use xinclude for this
   ... so simple analogue doesn't offer a solution
   ... I suggest that people may consider documents to be like
   programming languages; HEAD is an initialization section
   ... an alternative is to say that prefix declarations _only_ are
   done externally; @profile works like this
   ... so the declarations apply to the entire document

   Shane: with local overrides if you want
   ... a hybrid of @xmlns and @prefix

   Mark: but if we insist on @profile then we don't have local
   overrides
   ... and if we say @profile is equivalent to @xmlns then we're
   locked-in to a strict hierarchy

   Shane: I think we can divorce @prefix from this other problem
   ... we could have another set of rules, independent of @prefix and
   @xmlns, for loading a set of declarations

   Manu: I think we can separate these issues
   ... if we were to permit @profile on any element, we'd get the
   ability to pull in from anywhere

   Shane: so <head @profile> could apply to the entire document and
   @profile on any other element applies only locally?

   Manu: makes sense to me that HEAD applies to the whole document but
   I haven't really thought about this deeply

   Mark: I think we can make this backwards compatible
   ... although @profile is not currently well-defined in HTML, it
   _does_ say the URI is used with the values of @rel and @rev
   ... this implies that the profile does apply to the body as well as
   the head
   ... consider CSS rules; the stylesheet is loaded in the head and
   applies throughout the body
   ... we can also consider the form of the external document; my
   preference is for it to be an RDFa document
   ... it could be just a collection of XMLNS declarations
   ... could propose that the triples loaded from @profile go into a
   separate graph
   ... so there's the triples from the base document and a separate
   graph that helps you interpret the base document
   ... a graph that helps you parse itself is a bit Goedel-esque :)
   ... it feels to me that things that help you parse the current
   document should be a bit out-of-band
   ... I definitely don't think <meta @rel='profile'> is a good idea,
   nor <meta property="prefix" ...

   Manu: restricting ourselves to tokens and namespaces is good but bad
   to go beyond that

   Manu: what else do we have in RDFa that applies to the body when it
   appears in the head?

   Shane: nothing else
   ... the head section gives the properties of this document
   ... <title> a good example

   Manu: so @prefix in the HEAD applies to the body
   ... what about <html @prefix> ? would this work exactly like @xmlns?

   Shane: sure
   ... if either @prefix or @xmlns appears on <html> and we _also_ load
   a profile, what is the processing order?

   Manu: I'd expect @prefix to always override an external document
   ... same as @xmlns; it's a local override
   ... so profile is loaded first, then you apply the prefixes

   Shane: sounds logical but thinking in terms of the XML processing
   model you effectively have to process the document in the order
   you're given it
   ... so how would we deal with <html prefix><head prefix= profile=">
   ... ?

   Mark: could just mirror what CSS does
   ... not necessarily right or wrong but it's a pattern people are
   already familiar with

   Manu: we do have a precedent for saying some elements are processed
   before others
   ... our processing rules would effectively say to load @profile
   first then process @prefix and @xmlns

   Ralph: what if @profile appears lower in the tree?

   Mark: when you have finished processing HEAD, don't undo everything
   you've set when you start to process BODY
   ... @xmlns is all about the hierarchy but we want HEAD to be special
   ... two choices; retain HEAD settings in the BODY or
   ... but after finishing HEAD, when starting BODY do you go back to
   HTML or not?
   ... these rules can be discussed
   ... we need to decide what's at the URI that appears in @profile?

   Manu: should be an RDFa document
   ... that makes the most sense; otherwise we'd be inventing another
   mechanism for doing the same thing RDFa already does
   ... for example, you should be able to copy and paste the content of
   that profile document into the top of your current document and get
   the same result

   Mark: but I think the profile declarations should go into a separate
   graph

   Manu: that could also make sense

   Shane: I would never suggest that resolving the profile URI should
   add triples to the document graph
   ... all I want is the prefix bindings

   Mark: take a look at OWL's import mechanism too
   ... so a document could use owl:import if the processor allows
   ... agree that the triples from a profile should be kept separate

   Manu: we seem to have consensus to use @prefix
   ... acts just like @xmlns except that if used on HEAD it applies to
   the entire document
   ... remaining issue is the separator in the value of @prefix

   Mark: do we need @prefix in HEAD?
   ... if we agree that whatever bindings exist at the end of
   processing HEAD are preserved ...
   ... we only need to process the profile document first
   ... ah, but you could have <meta property='dc:title' prefix=...>
   ... but I think best practice would be to declare prefix on the html
   element
   ... so the remaining question is about processing external documents
   ... agree that @prefix on HEAD applies to the entire document but
   our examples should show best practice as using @prefix on <HTML>

   Manu: the downside is that @prefix is then slightly different from
   @xmlns

   Mark: and we'll also specify the value syntax for @prefix to be very
   different from @xmlns
   ... I recommend that we _not_ explain the @prefix mechanism by
   reference to @xmlns
   ... we're saying here's another way of declaring _prefixes_, *not*
   another way of declaring _namespaces_
   ... if the only reason for declaring a namespace is to get a prefix
   for, e.g., a CURIE, @prefix is a nicer way to do this

   Shane: in a separate context, someone submitted a commment noting a
   complaint from a validator on an xmlns declaration for XSI that was
   totally independent of RDFa
   ... the commentor conflated namespace declaration issues with RDFa

   Mark: I'd like to see this called 'token' and move further away from
   the xmlns area

   Manu: do we have enough now to start writing some test cases?

   Ralph: please create a notation for our test suite to distinguish
   these design tests from the approved RDFa-REC tests

   Manu: sure
   ... also need a way to talk about the two graphs; the document graph
   and the prefix binding graph

   Mark: and consider whether there is a well-known identifier for this
   separate graph
   ... should we define a name for it?

   Shane: I think we can just say the triples do not go into the
   document graph
   ... we don't have to require that the triples do go into some other
   graph
   ... e.g. some processor might not create an explicit graph

   Mark: discussions of who [author, publisher, ...] adds metadata to
   documents

   Shane: perhaps the graph could be named by the URI of the source?

   Mark: yeah, something like that

   ACTION: Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile.
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

   Manu: regrets for 5 Feb telecon

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to create design tests for @prefix and @profile.
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace
   [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create TC to test @resource="[]" does not
   set object based on TC 123. [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to look at
   [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
   ec/0037.html [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
   about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [34] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [36] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
     [38] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

     [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   [DROPPED] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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