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Meeting record for 2008-09-11 RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:11:11 -0400
Message-ID: <48CA868F.1020100@digitalbazaar.com>
To: SWD Working Group <public-swd-wg@w3.org>

Meeting record for yesterday's telecon is ready:


Text snapshot follows:


RDF in XHTML Task Force
11 Sep 2008


previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html

See also: IRC log

    Ben Adida, Manu Sporny, Steven Pemberton, Shane McCarron
    Mark Birbeck, Michael Hausenblas, Ralph Swick
    Ben Adida
    Manu Sporny


    * Topics
         1. Ad-hoc discussion on RDFa in other languages
         2. Action Items
         3. TAG finding (NoahM)
    * Summary of Action Items

Manu: Mark's proposal for how we allow Microformats-like markup is
interesting. He wants to do this:

Manu:prefix [ : [ resource] ]   instead of this:

Manu:[ prefix [ : ] ] resource <--- this is what we have right now in
the CURIE spec. That would allow you to do this:

Manu:prefix="hcard=http://microformats.org/vocab#hcard" and then <div

benadida: Don't know if I like that.

ShaneM1: Me neither.

<Steven> Well, I think it is quite clever. I like it, it solves a
problem in a neat way

benadida: This is the hGRDDL approach that we talked about some time ago
- we shouldn't stuff it into the prefix mapping.

Steven: I think it's clever. We do something special already with a
CURIE that doesn't have a value without a prefix.

Manu: I think the approach could work if we merge it with the @profile

ShaneM1: It's inconsistent with the definition of CURIE in the spec.

benadida: Mark's saying that we flip it around, but why isn't there a
way to create a auto-prefix, like Pascal "with" statement.

Steven: That is another solution.
... The thing with Mark's solution is that you don't need more syntax.
... There is a problem to be solved, and I thought that Mark's solution,
while it's too late, is a neat one.

benadida: Forget that it might be too late, it's still important, but it
requires that we define a whole bunch of prefixes.

<ShaneM1> prefix extension proposal is at

ShaneM1: This proposal stands whether you use @profile or @prefix.

benadida: You're building a DTD for HTML4?

ShaneM1: That's done.
... We need to separate the discussions.
... How do we generate documents that support HTML4 is one discussion.
... How do we support Microformats-like approaches, is the other.

<ShaneM1> http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

benadida: What do we do with HTML4? How do you validate? Do we want to
make it more official?

ShaneM1: We're producing a member submission, which is a profile of RDFa
for HTML4.

benadida: Creative Commons would be happy to support as a member.
... This is a great approach - we should move faster on it.
... We're doing this to allow people that want validation in HTML4 and
want to use RDFa.

TAG finding (NoahM)

benadida: This is just to make sure we're in sync with TAG, great
response to Noah, Steven.

Steven: I don't quite grasp the issue he is having.

benadida: It's critical - if TAG finding notes that we're not compliant,
even if we are, it would be bad.
... I don't think there is an issue.
... Noah is asking, how do you follow your nose.
... We declare @version at the top of the document.
... I think we said that we're modifying the XHTML namespace?
... It's been agreed upon that it will be done.
... That's how we follow our nose, right? We go to the namespace
document and we're done, right?

Steven: Is this machine follow your nose, or human follow your nose?

ShaneM1: Machine.

Steven: The namespace document is pure english at the moment, it's not
yet RDFa annotated, but it will be.

ShaneM1: nope. The change to the XHTML document is a GRDDL-compliant
@profile addition - that's the machine part of this.

benadida: It is follow-your-nose in-so-far as GRDDL is follow-your-nose.

ShaneM1: That's what TimBL told us to do.
... It doesn't point to RDFa, it points to XSLT transformation.
... Tim's declaration is that everything with an xmlns declaration is RDF.

benadida: is there another path to the RDFa specification.
... There is @version.

ShaneM1: There is a doctype declaration.

benadida: What's the normative one?
... The canonical one is the XHTML namespace.
... I'll follow it up, but we want to make sure that they know it is
follow-your-nose compliant.
... I believe that we use version="XHTML+RDFa1.0"

ShaneM1: I think Noah's argument is more arcane. His reading of the RFC
is that it doesn't permit the interpretation of documents of that media
type as containing RDF.

benadida: If that's the case, GRDDL is broken, because GRDDL is supposed
to apply to XHTML.
... What we're doing with the namespace document is 100% GRDDL compliant.
... GRDDL is REC and we're GRDDL compliant.
... If GRDDL is okay, why is RDFa not okay?
... @profile says this is GRDDL, rel="transformation" states that is how
you extract triples.

ShaneM1: There is no normative Schema document for XHTML 1.0

benadida: Then it's not the same thing as the namespace document.

ShaneM1: The namespace document is the thing at the end of @xmlns

<benadida> ACTION: Ben to figure out *how* to do the namespace-doc GRDDL
thing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action18]

<ShaneM1> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#ns-bind

benadida: I will continue TAG discussion.

ShaneM1: RFC alludes to modularization, but doesn't point to it.
... Modularization doesn't point to RDFa.
... I think that is Noah's argument.

benadida: Yes, but GRDDL.

ShaneM1: He hasn't incorporated GRDDL into his thinking.

benadida: We'll talk about Danny's comment later.

<Steven> (Good call)
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to figure out *how* to do the namespace-doc GRDDL
thing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action18]

[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description
of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the
NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI
resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address
RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for
Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property
and no child nodes. [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT
URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa
Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

[End of minutes]


-- manu

Manu Sporny
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Bitmunk 3.0 Website Launches
Received on Friday, 12 September 2008 15:11:52 UTC

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