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meeting record: 2008-09-04 RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:41:23 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904123928.034648e0@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org,public-swd-wg@w3.org

The minutes of today's RDFa telecon are now available [1].

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

04 Sep 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0016.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-08-28

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton, Shane McCarron,
          Ralph Swick

   Regrets
          Ben Adida

   Chair
          Manu

   Scribe
          Manu, Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. Status of this Task Force
         3. RDFa Parser Reserved Word Extension Mechanism
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________



Action Items

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21

   <Ralph> [11]issue 126 CR Comment: conformance for markup, a
   processor, or both?

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/126

   <Ralph> [12]issue 127 CR Comment: [Noah Mendelsohn] Comments on RDFa
   in XHTML: Syntax and processing

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/127

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated
   RDFa Primer [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C
   CVS. [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   Manu:I need to talk with Ralph about this

   [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to
   address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23

   <msporny>
   [16]http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-A
   ugust/012432.html

     [16] http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-August/012432.html

   Manu:I've started this discussion
   ... overall there's some push back; they'd rather I spend my time
   working on methods to map microformats to RDFa rather than embedding
   microformats in RDFa. They'd like a mapping mechanism defined that
   each microformats parser could use but I have also been contacted
   off-line by some saying a unified markup mechanism is better than a
   mapping mechanism

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [DONE] Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22

   <Ralph> [19]Re: Comments on RDFa in XHTML: Syntax and processing
   [Ralph 2008-08-28]

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0127.html

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy review and consider expanding the
   description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22

   <Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC
   about RDFa [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23

   <Ralph> Manu: I have sent email to Michael, waiting to hear back

   <Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to create test cases for testing
   relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22

   <Ralph> Ralph: if we want to update the Implementation Report again
   I think we should freeze the current one and start a new dated
   version

   <Ralph> ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write a pending test case for literal
   property and no child nodes [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [DONE] Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license
   on 28 Aug [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   Shane:do we need to change our test suite?

   Ralph:no

   Ralph:then this action is done to my satisfaction

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph to make
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: [DONE] Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21

   Shane:there are 3 of them but in particular [35]RDFainHTML4

     [35] http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

   ACTION: [PENDING] Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
   XSLT URI [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   ACTION: [DONE] Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   <ShaneM> [38]http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/rdfa

     [38] http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/rdfa

Status of this Task Force

   Ralph: The Task force is under both XHTML2 and SWD
   ... So, most of us are members of one or the other.
   ... This task force exists as long as the other two WGs exist.
   ... Both charters refer explicitly to XHTML.
   ... More directly, the deployment WG charter expires in December.
   ... We're probably not going to extend it.
   ... We have 4 major things on the deliverables list, RDFa was one of
   them.
   ... They will probably want to focus on SKOS.
   ... That doesn't need to stop us from talking about outreach,
   tutorials, wiki, etc.
   ... We would not find much support on SWD to extend RDFa work beyond
   Dec.

   <Ralph> [39]SWD WG charter

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter

   Ralph: Hmm, point #5 in deliverables

   <Ralph> "5. A W3C Technical Report (Working Group Note or
   Recommendation) specifying how to incorporate RDF semantics into
   HTML documents."

   Ralph: Specifying how to incorporate RDF into HTML documents.

   <Steven> XHTML2 charter says the same

   <Steven> "RDFa, (including CURIEs) for incorporating rich (meta)data
   semantics into HTML documents in a way that accommodates the use of
   independently-developed ontologies in combination. RDFa will be
   developed in cooperation with the Semantic Web Deployment WG"

   <Steven> In those days HTML meant XHTML

   Ralph: I think it's clear that we'd get pushback if we said XHTML2
   charter applies to HTML4/5.
   ... For RDFa 1.1, I wouldn't export any support from deployment WG.
   ... For doing RDF in non-XHTML, I think we get different pushback.
   ... We should be proposing a new charter for what we would want to
   do.

   <Steven> We are chartered til end 2009

   ShaneM: If we're talking about RDFa 1.1 and the XML space... I think
   for RDFa + XML work we could continue under the auspices of the
   XHTML2 WG for as long as we want

   Steven: Happy to carry on with RDFa until end of XHTML2 charter -
   end of next year.

   Ralph: Steven, Mark, Shane - do you have a feeling on what you'd
   like to do.
   ... Any reason to continue it under XHTML2 WG?
   ... or would you prefer to split it off?

   Steven: Haven't thought about it.

   Ralph: My bias is to make it a separate group.
   ... It'll be tough to get some folks to join XHTML2 WG.
   ... SWD has 4 separate tasks, with less interaction between each
   task than we envisioned when we wrote the charter.

   Steven: This is the reason XForms got created, it makes sense.

   Ralph: How soon should we admit that we're starting work on RDFa
   1.1?

   <ShaneM> I don't mind if this activity became its own working
   group....

   Ralph: The con is fairly big to start on the next version too soon.

   <markbirbeck> +1 To that

   Ralph: Creates too many opportunities for FUD.

   <markbirbeck> not sure what's going into 1.1

   markbirbeck: If we have an ongoing, general charter, it might be
   okay.
   ... To tell people that there is stuff to add to RDFa feels a bit
   odd.

   ShaneM: Agree - let it sit for a little while.
   ... I think we could extend it, it works fine.

   Ralph:there is stuff we have deferred; syntax for lists

   ShaneM: Works fine as is.

   Ralph: There are certainly features of RDF, that we don't have
   features for in RDFa.
   ... I think our message should be that "We recognize that there are
   more features to add in RDFa, but we want to see how RDFa does in
   the field". We need deployment experience to set the feature
   priorities.

   <ShaneM> I think we need to support HTML - I don't mind how we do
   that.

   <Steven> (It will always be an extra call :-) )

   Mark:we could consider offering our experience to other groups, e.g.
   ATOM
   ... we could add to our Wiki list of broader RDFa deployments; not
   just XHTML

   Mark: This is time consuming for some people in this group. Perhaps
   we should focus on helping others get this right. It's not just the
   processors, it has to do with XHTML+RDFa.

   <ShaneM> evangelism is important too - we need to find a way to
   continue our marketing efforts about RDFa.

   <Steven> That sounds like an interest group

   Mark: but also extending the notion of 'deployment'; maybe this does
   require a Group

   <ShaneM> +1 for an interest group

   Steven: Interest Groups are usually much lighter-weight
   ... can write the charter to permit non-W3C Members to participate
   ... an IG is not involved with producing specifications

   Manu: I want to be sure that we can speak with some W3C authority
   when we talk with other communities
   ... the microformats community does respect other standards
   ... so it's important to be able to speak as a W3C standards group

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we spread the word that
   this works in HTML

   Shane: regardless of what we call the activity, it would be nice to
   have a way to spread the word that there's a way to use this with
   HTML; this is a 'today' problem

   <ShaneM> To see my rant look at [40]http://halindrome.blogspot.com/

     [40] http://halindrome.blogspot.com/

   <ShaneM> While we are not obligated to continue meeting, we have
   charter to do so through December 2008.

RDFa Parser Reserved Word Extension Mechanism

   -> [41]RDFa Vocabularies

     [41] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies

   Manu: Shane, Mark, and I have been looking at this idea recently
   ... the idea is to be able to incorporate some microformat words

   <ShaneM> total straw man proposal - nothing set in stone

   Manu: we have an outline of a proposal

   Mark: this hasn't just come up recently; it's been in the air for a
   long time
   ... it's not just about microformats
   ... it just happens that certain tweaks would make things easier for
   microformat folk
   ... but it's really more about extending CURIEs rather than
   extending RDFa
   ... we have to be careful not to skew this
   ... the way it's being proposed at the moment it sounds as though
   we're inviting lots of input from microformats community
   ... it could sound like we're proposing to incorporate microformats
   and that's not what we're saying
   ... the idea is to provide a mechanism for allowing people to use
   more unprefixed terms
   ... that's sort-of what microformats does
   ... the current idea is to provide a mechanism for others to define
   unprefixed values
   ... let's present it that way
   ... and note that if you're a microformats person, this new
   mechanism looks a lot like microformats

   Manu: agree, but we're also trying to win over the HTML5 community
   and the microformats community so let's not lose sight of that
   ... do we need @prefix or does the @xmlns work expand to do this?

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we present this idea

   Shane: agree with Mark that there's not much new in this proposal
   ... my immediate goal was just to write a page that speaks to the
   microformats people
   ... in a presentation that would resonate with that community

   <ShaneM> @prefix or @xmlns is just a way of defining a "prefix"
   property

   Mark: I cited @@ an idea to flip CURIEs on their head
   ... it occurred to me that if we were to say there is a substitution
   string X that _sometimes_ has a suffix
   ... there would no longer be 'unprefixed' values; there would just
   be mappings to URIs
   ... everything becomes a mapping, including @rel='next'
   ... @rel='next' is currently a mapping because we have explicitly
   said so

   <Steven> rel="alternate"

   <ShaneM> A CURIE is a TOKEN - all TOKENs have mappings. How those
   are established is... magic?

   <Steven> rel="alternate:stylesheet"

   Mark: if we say 'x' and 'x:y' are both CURIEs then the mapping
   mechanism handles both
   ... we'd still need to define how to declare mappings
   ... connects to an older idea of Shane's to use this as a mechanism
   for defining vocabularies

   <markbirbeck> rel="x"

   Mark: consider CURIE as a substitution mechanism for substituting a
   longer string for a shorter one

   <markbirbeck> x:y

   Mark: a secondary feature is that ':' just means concatenation

   <Steven> rel="alternate" rel="alternate:stylesheet"

   Mark: this would be compatible with RDFa as RDFa only uses the x:y
   format

   <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"

   Mark: and would make @typeof='hcard' not look like a hack

   <Steven> I like it

   Shane: I don't disagree but this looks like a mental model that's
   not inconsistent with the current model
   ... in terms of the way CURIE is currently defined, these are
   unprefixed values

   Mark: the spec currently enumerates a list of unprefixed values and
   says how to map them

   Shane: only for RDFa+XHTML; not for any other has reserved words

   Ralph: the hard thing is for strings without ':' to come from
   several vocabularies

   <markbirbeck> "A host language MAY interpret a reference value that
   is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a
   host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values
   MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE."

   Shane: this _can_ be viewed as a preprocessing step

   Mark: what's missing from the current CURIE language is
   specification of a mechanism for getting new reserved values
   ... I'd put the preprocessing language in with a view that we'd
   later have to resolve how to define new reserved words

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:hcard="...."

   Mark: my realization the other day is to think of x: as a mapping

   <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"

   Mark: I think this simply works in our current processing model with
   just slight changes in CURIE
   ... no pre-defined tokens; xmlns:hcard defines the token

   Manu: so the mechanism we'd use to do this -- whether @xmlns or
   @prefix -- would lift out each of the current reserved tokens?

   Mark: we've discussed a separate mechanism for adding to the
   predefined tokens

   Mark: but if I do ...

   <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard:"

   ... folk would understand this as nearly what microformats currently
   does but with an ugly ':' on the end
   ... it works with the _current_ processing model

   <markbirbeck> "x:" "y"

   vs

   <markbirbeck> "x" ":y"

   Mark: so the mapping is defined even without a ':'

   <Steven> that means we could preload foaf dc and so on

   <Steven> as well

   <markbirbeck> x a :b

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:a="[42]http://...type"

     [42] http://...type/

   <markbirbeck> a:

   <markbirbeck> a

   <Steven> nice discussion

   Mark: I suggest we discuss this in its own terms and not tie it so
   closely to microformats
   ... looking at N3, essentially it's defining substitution tokens
   ... I'll write this up in mail

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated
   RDFa Primer [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the
   description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa
   [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI
   resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C
   CVS. [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to
   address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal
   property and no child nodes [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
   XSLT URI [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
     [49] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
     [51] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   [DONE] ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license
   on 28 Aug [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
   [DONE] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
   [DONE] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
     [64] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
     [65] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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Received on Thursday, 4 September 2008 16:42:20 UTC

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