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meeting record: 2008-11-06 RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:22:10 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081106222028.057bb668@127.0.0.1>
To: public-swd-wg@w3.org,public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon is now available:

  http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html

Thanks to Manu for scribing this telecon.

A text snapshot follows below.

----

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

06 Nov 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0003.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-10-30

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
          Steven Pemberton (irc only)

   Chair
          Ben Adida

   Scribe
          Manu Sporny

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Item Review
         2. Ongoing maintenance of wiki/documentation
         3. Recent and Upcoming Talks
         4. Potential Improvements to RDFa
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

Action Item Review

   ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI
   is set up. [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece
   [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   benadida: Had dinner with Steve from Digg.
   ... They're very interested in coordinating with other news sites to
   come up with a social news vocabulary.

   Manu: SIOC was published as W3C member submission.

   benadida: That would be good to get social news sites to adopt SIOC.

   <Ralph> [13]SIOC Member Submission

     [13] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/02/

   <Ralph> [14]SOTD for SIOC

     [14] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/SUBM-sioc-spec-20070612/

   Ralph: There's a sioc-dev that we could send comments into.

   <Ralph> [15]SIOC-dev list

     [15] http://groups.google.com/group/sioc-dev/topics

   Ralph: That would be a good place to start the conversation.

   ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list
   for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   <Ralph> [17][LC] Official SVG Tiny Working Draft Comments from W3C
   RDF in XHTML Task Force [Manu 2008-10-09]

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0110.html

   ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped
   during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [CONTINUES]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [CONTINUES]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [CONTINUES]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   Manu: Ralph, your action's solution might be SIOC.

   Ralph: Yes, there might be more, but SIOC might solve a decent bit
   of the problem.

Ongoing maintenance of wiki/documentation

   benadida: Right now Mark has some actions to write FOAF examples.
   ... Any other immediate need for documentation?

   Manu: the examples with digg and drupal ...
   ... we might take some of the postings that have been sent to the
   mailing list and copy them to the wiki

   Manu: Seems that most of the interest has been in social news and
   CMS systems so far.

   benadida: There might be some interest with publications.
   ... Perhaps we can edit the wiki down.

   ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of
   slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

   <Ralph> [26]SemWeb Home Page

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/

   benadida: Could we add "RDFa News and Updates", and "RDFa Wiki"
   under the RDFa section.

   <Ralph> what path do we want folk to follow to get to
   [27]http://rdfa.info/ ?

     [27] http://rdfa.info/

   benadida: We should also have the primer in there somewhere.
   ... Adding those links should be good.

   Manu: for editing utilities, I cited fuzzbot
   ... would be nice to have a bigger collection of utilities

   <Ralph> [28]Fuzzbot

     [28] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/fuzzbot/

   Manu: especially a set of tools that supports a full publishing
   cycle

   Ben: I use the bookmarklets for this. What more is needed?

   Manu: if we believe folks should use the bookmarklets more to do
   editing, we should publicize this

   ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with
   screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

   <Ralph> [30]Fuzzbot 0.8.3

     [30] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/8736

   Manu: we could make a tools request list
   ... especially tools that work across all platforms

   <Ralph> [31]bookmarklets?

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/

   Ben: that's out of date; it cites ->
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/

   benadida: That's the latest.

   <Ralph> [33]old, out-of-date TF page

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/

   Ralph: We've got a number of stale pages around.

   benadida: I should fix that page.

   ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point
   to new TF page. [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

   benadida: It would be good to clean that.
   ... We might want to have a new test case.
   ... Where the empty string is null.

   Manu: Do you have a test case in mind for that?

   <benadida> <a href="foo.html"><span about=""
   property="dc:creator">Ben</span></a>

   benadida: It's an issue in Javascript, or any language where the
   empty string could be construed as NULL.

   <Ralph> [Ben is noting a coding style trap in javascript]

   benadida: you would expect the previous example to set the creator
   of the current page.
   ... It was only in the case of emtpy @about where the chaining
   didn't happen correctly.

   ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain
   [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

   <Ralph> i.e. an empty attribute value is not the same as an absent
   attribute

Recent and Upcoming Talks

   Manu: I'm speaking at [36]Web Directions North in January
   ... giving a 4-hour workshop on RDFa

     [36] http://north.webdirections.org/

   <Steeeven> I spoke at the TPAC

   <Steeeven> last talk of the dayy

   <markbirbeck>
   [37]http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8

     [37] http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8

   markbirbeck: I submitted a talk on RDFa, I'm on a panel on Semantic
   Web and Goverment

   <Ralph> [38]Why you should have a Web Site Steven, W3C Technical
   Plenary talk 2008-10-22]

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/10-22-steven-website/

   markbirbeck: It's normally called XML 2007, but now it's XML in
   Practice.
   ... I did an RDFa talk there last year.

   benadida: I've been invited to talk at the Interlab Conference at a
   Semantic Web Panel

   <markbirbeck> I should say that last year I did a *lightning* talk
   on RDFa...so this is a step up. :)

   benadida: it's a panel on how the semantic web is getting real.
   ... Important that if you have slides you're willing to share. Under
   Creative Commons for example.
   ... If you're looking for the longer presentations, they're on my
   website.

   <markbirbeck>
   [39]http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presenta
   tion_2008.html?presentation_id=357

     [39] http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presentation_2008.html?presentation_id=357

   markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a session.
   ... I've been asked to chair a panel - it's good for RDFa because
   they think it'll be a major part of the discussion.

   <Ralph> [40]RDFa - Bridging the Web of Documents and the Web of Data
   [ISWC tutorial by Michael, Ivan, Ben]

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/1026-ISCW-RDFa/

Potential Improvements to RDFa

   benadida: I was speaking primarily to the @prefix attribute.

   <benadida> --> [41]http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

     [41] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

   benadida: Specifically, what Shane has written on the Wiki.

   <msporny> Manu: prefix="ns=[42]http://blah.com/"

     [42] http://blah.com/

   Manu: we've talked about several possibilities
   ... a space-separated list of items

   <msporny> Manu: prefix="=[43]http://example.org/vocab"

     [43] http://example.org/vocab

   Manu: a default namespace

   <msporny> Manu: prefix="[44]http://example.org/vocab"

     [44] http://example.org/vocab

   Manu: the case of eliding the '='

   <msporny> Manu: prefix="ex=http://example.org/vocab"

   Manu: last conversation with Shane the idea was to have @prefix
   support all of these cases
   ... @prefix="a=b" matches the current xmlns case

   <msporny> Manu: prefix="[45]http://myvocab.org/vocab"

     [45] http://myvocab.org/vocab

   Manu: question of how to denote things we want the parser to fetch
   ... objective is to have the parser load vocabulary-specific triples
   [from a URI]
   ... similar to @profile
   ... we were unsure whether GRDDL would be OK with reusing @profile
   elsewhere

   Ben: GRDDL doesn't own @profile
   ... the 3 cases Manu cites are noted in
   [46]http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

     [46] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

   <benadida> third case prefix="=[47]http://creativecommons.org/ns#"

     [47] http://creativecommons.org/ns

   Ben: I'm not wild about that last syntax
   ... ="= just looks like mal-formed syntax to me

   Mark: and using this functionality for loading special vocabularies
   feels wrong to me
   ... I don't think we should overload @prefix; @profile is for this
   purpose
   ... I'm also not wild about the default namespace syntax
   ... but I'm not sure we need a default namespace
   ... I've been working on the token idea and the more I do the more
   it has evolved
   ... the idea of having a vocabulary with a list of terms is not
   suited to all situations; sometimes you just want a list of tokens
   ... I'm no longer convinced we should encourage unprefixed CURIEs

   Ben: so 'foo' and 'bar' might map to terms from different
   vocabularies, with completely different URIs?

   Mark: yes
   ... this use of [unprefixed] tokens is the big innovation in
   microformats
   ... I think we should embrace this and provide the underpinning that
   makes it possible
   ... N3 allows a "predicate" of 'a' which maps to rdf:type

   Ralph: but N3 did not do this in an extensible way; 'a' is a
   hard-wired keyword

   Mark: yes, but we can fit that into a new mindset
   ... we could say that 'a' is a CURIE and we provide a mapping to its
   URI
   ... and we can also allow 'license' to map to a different URI
   ... where 'a' and 'license' co-exist nicely
   ... if we keep @prefix simple we'll avoid lots of arguments

   Ben: I believe we agree that @prefix plays the same role as @xmlns

   Ralph: I spoke with Shane a while ago and it's possible that @prefix
   does not directly map to xmlns.
   ... Shane thought that there might be some issues with that.

   benadida: The only thing where it might be an issue is declaring
   something in HEAD
   ... We want to make markup simpler - so when we compare Microformats
   to RDFa, people don't see that RDFa is very complicated.
   ... There are several ways you can do that - reserved words,
   token-based approach.
   ... I think we're going to have to pick one.
   ... if we pick more than one, it might make things more difficult.

   <Ralph> [I very much like the idea that the documents that define
   lists of tokens use RDFa to define those lists]

   markbirbeck: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

   benadida: We need to continue this discussion.

   <Steeeven> +1 to ralph

   benadida: We should focus on documentation and simplified RDFa using
   @prefix/@profile.

   Ben: we should prototype in our implementations before proposing any
   formal change

   Mark: my solution only requires RDFa to add @profile and most of the
   work is pushed into the CURIE spec
   ... the token language in the RDFa spec intentionally leaves room
   for this

   Ben: I wouldn't want to ask RDFa parsers to have to look to CURIE
   spec for lots of new rules
   ... but I like the look of Mark's syntax
   ... I especially like not having to load everything into @prefix

   next meeting: 20 November

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to
   point to new TF page. [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of
   slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with
   screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain
   [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment
   identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded
   in [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to
   RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup.
   [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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