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meeting record: 2008-04-29 SWD WG

From: Jon Phipps <jphipps@madcreek.com>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:09:54 -0400
Message-Id: <38100CBF-4FD1-4BA2-B7A7-C143A91AE1F4@madcreek.com>
To: SWD Working SWD <public-swd-wg@w3.org>

The minutes [1] from Tuesday's SWDWG telecon are ready for review.

   [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes and  
update the files in W3 space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html#action12]

[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept  
Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd- 
minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move  
ISSUE-71 and -74 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd- 
minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa  
(with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http:// 
www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to  
primer re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http:// 
www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and  
equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18- 
swd-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default  
behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd- 
minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of  
rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http:// 
lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of  
Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22- 
swd-minutes.html#action20]

[DONE] ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS  
until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd- 
minutes.html#action01]


Full text follows, for tracker.

W3C
SWD WG
29 Apr 2008

Agenda

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
     Tom Baker, Jon Phipps, Daniel Rubin, Alistair Miles, Margherita  
Sini, Antoine Isaac, Sean Bechhofer, Guus Schreiber, Ben Adida, Ed  
Summers
Regrets
     Elisa Kendall, Diego Berrueta, Ralph Swick
Chair
     Tom
Scribe
     Jon

Contents

     * Topics
          1. Admin
          2. SKOS
          3. RDFA
          4. RECIPES
          5. VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT
     * Summary of Action Items

<TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html
Admin

TomB: Live coverage of the F2F via IRC and telephone

edsu: Clay has checked out phones and that's working

Tomb: There will be 7 teleconferences before July in which to get the  
remaining work done

RESOLUTION: Minutes of the April 22 telecon: http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html accepted

<scribe> ACTION: Chairs to draft charter extension proposal for SKOS  
until July 1st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/26-swd- 
minutes.html#action01] [COMPLETED]

TomB: Would like to focus on getting the wiki document complete this  
week
... would like to encourage issue owners to get their portions  
complete this week
... editors of primer and reference should edit the wiki to improve  
the clustering of topics
... so that it's clear what everyone needs to read before the f2f
SKOS

TomB: Reads schedule as noted in the agenda

<scribe> ACTION: Ed to investigate what text could be added to primer  
re. concept co-ordination [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/04/22- 
swd-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]

TomB: edsu should directly edit the wiki and send a note to the list  
before Friday so that everyone can read the docs

<scribe> ACTION: Guus to write primer text re: broaderGeneric and  
equivalence w/r/t subclass [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18- 
swd-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

Guus: thinks it's tied into the discussion of whether this belongs in  
the discussion of whether this is included
... making the broader equivalent to rdf:type and broadergeneric  
equivalent to rdfs:subclass

aliman: the discussion of the datamodel may be quite long
... we might not to get too deep into the design

Guus: will make sure this action is complete by Friday
... This is on the f2f agenda as issue-56

TomB: Is part of the discussion whether this is in the current ref or  
a future extension
... what is the correct discussion sequence?

Guus: let's discuss issue-56 before issue-37

aliman: there are a bunch of issue that are part of a scope discussion

<TomB> +1 like the idea of having scope discussion first

<edsu> +1 me too

aliman: can we do a quick discussion about which things are in scope  
before we continue to the discussion

guus, TomB: This sounds like a good idea

scribe: aliman to edit the agenda to put a scope discussion at the top

<scribe> ACTION: Ralph to check whether the common interpretation of  
rdfs isDefinedBy fits the reasoning that was made in http:// 
lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Oct/0141.html  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/18-swd-minutes.html#action10]  
[CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Alistair to make a proposal for Issue 40 (Concept  
Coordination) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/29-swd- 
minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Alistair to review Antoine and Guus' emails to move  
ISSUE-71 and -74 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-swd- 
minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

TomB: beyond aliman's suggestion to put scoping at the top, we don't  
have a clear discussion order
... in what order should we discuss?
... issues 69, 70, 41 are currently in a section called new issues
... There are an awful lot of issues. We should think through the  
order before starting the f2f
... editors of primer and reference should please update the order by  
Friday
... please check to see if the dependencies are still current as well
... There are about 25 issues, and each is a page, and the drafts for  
the ref, primer, xl proposal
... we need to make clear what everyone should print out to bring along

antoine: discuss semantics of particular properties and editorial issues
... and make sure that issues don't get discussed twice

TomB: Yes, editorial issues should be at the end
... we have a cluster of issues around the skos schema, 20005 working  
draft, modifying terms, that sort of thing
... we have things like issue-40 which is non-essential. Maybe we  
should put the non-essential things toward the end.
... We could probably edit the agenda based on the scoping discussion
... Everyone needs to read the reference, primer and XL, and print  
out each issue page
... There's a draft OWL schema and the 2005 skos working draft, but  
they don't necessarily need to print those out

aliman: seanb sent around a link to a proposed formal schema for skos
... the schema includes lots of documentation, making the schema  
itself an OWL 2 ontology
... if anyone needs OWL DL schema they should take a look at it

<edsu> aliman: nice work on the validation of the html and owl at  
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080125-resources/
RDFA

TomB: reads the schedule from the agenda

<aliman> thanks edsu, it was nice to discover an automated transform  
from the reference prose was possible :)

<edsu> aliman: speaking of rdfa eh? :)

<scribe> ACTION: Diego to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http:// 
www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ed to review RDFa Primer Editor's draft http:// 
www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20080422/ [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2008/04/22-swd-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to prepare draft implementation report for RDFa  
(with assistance from Michael) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action14] [CONTINUES]

benadida: There's a new version of the syntax going out today, and  
this will be the last substantive change before CR
... Gave an RDFa tutorial at WWW that was very well-received
RECIPES

<scribe> ACTION: Ralph propose resolution to ISSUE-16 "Default  
behavior" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/22-swd- 
minutes.html#action14] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of  
Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22- 
swd-minutes.html#action20] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Jon will correct the PURL references in the recipes  
and update the files in W3 space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/ 
2008/04/29-swd-minutes.html#action12]
VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT

TomB: Working draft by June 1, 2008
... Elisa will put together a list of issues for discussion at the f2f
... Will send a note to her to get that ready before Friday
... Anything else to add before the f2f?

Guus: A few things to discuss in the remaining time
... stuck with the broadergeneric and broadertransitive specialization
... We make a distinction between broader and broadertransitive and  
maybe that makes our lives difficult

SeanB: Can you explain why this is a problem.

Guus: If you define broader as directly below another term
... then broadergeneric becomes a subproperty of broader

the scribe is having trouble keeping up with this conversation

<aliman> guus: say we have, a broader b, b broader c. broaderGeneric  
subproperty broader. broaderGeneric equivalentProperty subClassOf. ...

<aliman> seanb: say broader is not transitive, ...

thanks aliman :) oy

<aliman> guus: intended usage is broader means direct broader, that's  
why we have broaderTransitive

<aliman> antoine: but can have exception for broaderGeneric ...

<aliman> guus: no, get two meanings of broader.

<aliman> seanb: not sure I see as a problem.

aliman: there are a couple of issues we can specify -- if you  
introduce broaderGeneric, how do you affect the semantics? And is  
subclassof the best way to do it
... at a meeting in manchester, they're generating skos from owl, and  
rather than using the same vocabulary you use a transform
... if you make the links explicit, you deny choice
... Otherwise you allow transforms from one world to another

<aliman> seanb: skos:broader is intended to represent direct, but  
that's about usage not semantics. so if defined broaderGeneric, as  
transitive, don't contradict semantics, but do contradict our usage  
conventions.

<aliman> guus: yes, if have broaderTransitive and broader, gives  
impression that broader is direct link. Then if have broaderGeneric,  
it looks like rdfs:subClassOf.

<aliman> ... if we do this broaderGeneric, then in favour of dropping  
broaderTransitive, keeping broader ambiguous, and if people want  
direct broader term use a query facility, like people do in OWL.

<aliman> seanb: I'd have to do more work. I can't query for  
transitive closure, would have to do more work in application.

<aliman> guus: but have to do that anyway. if work in rdf do that  
anyway.

aliman: this discussion is one of the main reasons we should consider  
broaderGeneric for an extension module

Seanb: the problem then is that this affects the reference

Guus: could we continue this discussion for another 10 minutes after  
the meeting?

<TomB> Meeting adjourned

[End of minutes]
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2008/04/30 16:44:25 $
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