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Re: ISSUE-160: Allowing collections in semantic relationships

From: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:09:55 +0100
Message-ID: <4947C4C3.7020706@few.vu.nl>
To: Dupriez Christophe <christophe_dupriez@yahoo.fr>
CC: "public-swd-wg@w3.org" <public-swd-wg@w3.org>, "public-esw-thes@w3.org" <public-esw-thes@w3.org>

Hi Christophe,

 
> Also in Eurovoc (and ISO 2788) is pre-coordination. The most famous example is "Minerval" which means "tuition fee" in Belgium. In Eurovoc, you have a relation:
> Minerval USE (Belgium AND Tuition fee)
> How pre-coordination is represented in SKOS?

That's exactly the kind of stuff that would add to te complexity, and that we ended up postponing to future extensions, cf [1] and [2]. It's complex, plus there is no well-established common practice, unless you do it for thesauri and openly neglect coordination for subject heading lists and classification system, which, if not completely identical issue, is still related.

Antoine

[1] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/40
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#secconceptcoordination
> 
> Christophe
> 
> --- En date de : Mar 16.12.08, Johan De Smedt <Johan.De-smedt@tenforce.com> a écrit :
> 
>> De: Johan De Smedt <Johan.De-smedt@tenforce.com>
>> Objet: RE: ISSUE-160: Allowing collections in semantic relationships
>> À: "Dupriez Christophe" <christophe_dupriez@yahoo.fr>, "Aida Slavic" <aida@acorweb.net>, "Thomas Baker" <baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>> Cc: "Antoine Isaac" <aisaac@few.vu.nl>, "public-swd-wg@w3.org" <public-swd-wg@w3.org>, "public-esw-thes@w3.org" <public-esw-thes@w3.org>
>> Date: Mardi 16 Décembre 2008, 15h05
>> Dear,
>>
>> As far as Eurovoc is concerned, the following modelling can
>> go as an extension.
>>
>> Eurovoc
>> - it is one thesaurus (Concept scheme)
>> - It has several micro-thesauri (also concept scheme), 
>>   - ranging over a subset of the concepts in the overall
>> thesaurus
>>   - for the concepts considered in the micro-thesaurus, no
>> other associations hold than those present in the overall
>> thesaurus
>> - The micro thesauri are grouped (actually partitioned)
>> into domains
>>
>> Structural extensions of skos required to model this
>> - a construct/constraint to validate that a micro-thesaurus
>> is ranging over a subset of concepts of the overall
>> thesaurus
>>   (example: the Concept group)
>> - a Domain as a superstructure of micro-thesauri
>>   (could be a "super" Concept group)
>>
>> Typically in thesauri there are thesaurus array.
>> The difference as I understand it between a thesaurus arry
>> and a concept group is that the concepts in an array are
>> siblings
>> whereas the concepts in a concept group do not have this
>> constraint.
>>
>> Thanks for comments.
>>
>> Johan De Smedt
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-esw-thes-request@w3.org
>> [mailto:public-esw-thes-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Dupriez
>> Christophe
>> Sent: Tuesday, 16 December, 2008 14:44
>> To: Aida Slavic; Thomas Baker
>> Cc: Antoine Isaac; public-swd-wg@w3.org;
>> public-esw-thes@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: ISSUE-160: Allowing collections in semantic
>> relationships
>>
>>
>> Hi Aida and Thomas,
>>
>> First I see that my very first answer to Aida did not went
>> thru:
>>
>> --- Reaction to first Aida message:
>>
>> I strongly support the position of Aida. We need a standard
>> to represent correctly the proeminent features of what we
>> have doing since the 80s. At least: Eurovoc which is a very
>> good example of ISO 5964; MeSH which is the de-facto
>> standard for all life sciences.
>>
>> In a way, I would say the ISO standards (monolingual,
>> multilingual thesaurus) which has always been a reference
>> for all the profession + MeSH which is the most succesful
>> big thesaurus are the MINIMA for SKOS.
>>
>> Personnaly, I am happy with the concept of Collection to
>> represent an arbitrary subset within a Scheme
>> ("purpose" oriented). For example in a business
>> system, "userLangage" can be the collection within
>> the scheme "language" of the languages supported
>> to interact with users.
>>
>> Looking at the MeSH, there is an entity which looks like
>> what you sometimes call a Collection: the Descriptor. The
>> Descriptor is group of Concept (in the meaning of MeSH and
>> SKOS) that are "blurred" together for indexing and
>> retrieval purposes.
>> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/concept_structure.html
>> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/redefine.html
>> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/2009/download/xml_data_elements.html
>>
>> Descriptors are put in a classification tree
>> (broader/narrower hierarchies for indexing/retrieval
>> purpose: not for "reasoning" purposes).
>> Descriptors and their hierarchies are retrieval tools (for
>> humans), not reasoning tools (for machines).
>>
>> SKOS would definitively benefit of a structured work taking
>> ISO standards and MeSH and then look at their direct, simple
>> and future proof representation in SKOS. We must build on
>> past practical experience.
>>
>> I would like here to state what is for me the major
>> difference between SKOS and OWL... SKOS is to provide
>> control data for a tool which links users and applications
>> (terms, translations, synonyms, indexing/retrieval
>> hierarchies, classification linking users to concepts). OWL
>> is to provide control data for software application
>> decisions (logical relations between concepts).
>>
>> If this is true, SKOS must provide the necessary data to
>> "drive" the users from their representation of the
>> world to the concepts managed by the computer application
>> (and vice-versa: to expose the application in a meaningful
>> way for users).
>>
>> I work in a Poison Centre where those considerations are
>> judged in the context of vital/urgent retrieval and analysis
>> of information. We use thesauri for decades and we are
>> looking to SKOS to make them future proof.
>>
>> ---- Following Thomas message:
>>
>> I agree with you "in theory". The practician
>> problem I have is that, unlike UniMARC and other libraries
>> initiatives of the past, it is very difficult to find groups
>> who work to create the DCMI profile for a given need. Also
>> grammar of DC fields content is not precisely specified like
>> what MARC+ISBD is providing.
>>
>> I am working with medical articles (Medline XML is de facto
>> standard), music records (not for sale, for selection by
>> conductors), music scores and regular documents. I wanted to
>> align my DC use to existing profiles but I did not found any
>> group working on this. Finally, I made my own and I will
>> adapt to any future standard using XSLT crosswalks. It is
>> also not so difficult to change field names in DSpace
>> applications.
>>
>> With SKOS, we are looking to define a sizeable and
>> consistent nucleus (able to cope with known needs) that can
>> be enriched with RDF if one wants to address unforeseen
>> needs. I used SKOS as a data model for an application
>> integrated into DSpace and I am rather happy for now (live
>> production will start in following weeks). It imports
>> ConceptSchemes from SQL views, Tab delimited files, XML and
>> export it to XML and through a Java API. I still have to add
>> RIO to import/export RDF triples. But I have an XSD for an
>> XML representation of a SKOS data structure (which is
>> something one could want to standardize also). The XML files
>> can be edited with JAXE for instance. Supporting RDF will
>> allow my users to use Protege/SKOS.
>>
>> Have a nice day,
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> --- En date de : Mar 16.12.08, Thomas Baker
>> <baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de> a écrit :
>>
>>> De: Thomas Baker <baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>>> Objet: Re: ISSUE-160: Allowing collections in semantic
>> relationships
>>> À: "Dupriez Christophe"
>> <christophe_dupriez@yahoo.fr>
>>> Cc: "Aida Slavic" <aida@acorweb.net>,
>> "Antoine Isaac" <aisaac@few.vu.nl>,
>> "public-swd-wg@w3.org"
>> <public-swd-wg@w3.org>,
>> "public-esw-thes@w3.org"
>> <public-esw-thes@w3.org>
>>> Date: Mardi 16 Décembre 2008, 12h14
>>> Hi Christophe,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 09:59:56AM +0000, Dupriez
>>> Christophe wrote:
>>>> MARC is very complex, OK. Dublin Core has
>> provided a
>>> lowest
>>>> common denominator for exchanges between human
>> users.
>>> But
>>>> Dublin Core has forgotten many of MARC qualities
>>> (semantical
>>>> precision for instance) and has not really
>> benefitted
>>> from
>>>> the knowledge of MARC pitfalls (semantical
>> adequation
>>> of
>>>> data for foreseen real purposes). Dublin Core is
>>> correct for
>>>> "information discovery" but is now used
>> for
>>> "information
>>>> management" which is a painful problem.
>>> I wanted to point out that "Dublin Core" is
>> more
>>> than a set
>>> of fifteen elements used with string values (a usage
>> which
>>> is now referred to as "Simple Dublin Core").
>>>
>>> The fifteen elements are part of a larger vocabulary
>>> "DCMI
>>> Metadata Terms" [1] which, as RDF properties and
>>> classes,
>>> are just as extensible as properties and classes in
>> SKOS.
>>> A "Dublin Core application profile" [2] uses
>>> properties
>>> from RDF vocabularies, as needed, to address specific
>> real
>>> purposes.  Most of the properties in DCMI Metadata
>> Terms
>>> also
>>> have formally defined ranges -- more for purposes of
>>> machine
>>> processing than for exchanges between human users.
>>>
>>> There is an interesting parallel between the design
>>> trade-offs
>>> described by Antoine with respect to the specificity
>> or
>>> generic
>>> nature of SKOS and the specificity of the RDF
>> vocabularies
>>> defined around the fifteen-element Dublin Core.  I do
>> not
>>> believe there is a "perfect" balance between
>>> simplicity and
>>> complexity; rather, the solution lies in providing
>>> mechanisms
>>> for principled extensibility.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if this addresses your point about
>>> "semantical
>>> adequation of data", but the extensibility of the
>>> vocabularies plus the notion of mixed-vocabulary
>> profiles
>>> means that profiles can be designed to be as complex
>> or
>>> management-oriented as needed.
>>>
>>> Tom (who also works with DCMI)
>>>
>>> [1] http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/ (see
>> also
>>>     http://yoyodesign.org/doc/dcmi/dcmi-terms/ in
>> French)
>>> [2]
>>>
>> http://dublincore.org/documents/2008/01/14/singapore-framework/
>>> -- 
>>> Tom Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de>
> 
> 
>       
> 
> 
Received on Tuesday, 16 December 2008 15:10:36 UTC

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