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[RDFa] meeting record: 2007-02-5 RDF-in-XHTML telecon

From: Hausenblas, Michael <michael.hausenblas@joanneum.at>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:07:09 +0100
Message-ID: <768DACDC356ED04EA1F1130F97D29852FAB3DA@RZJC2EX.jr1.local>
To: "RDFa" <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Cc: "SWD WG" <public-swd-wg@w3.org>


The record of yesterday's RDF in XHTML telecon is available [1].
A full text snapshot follows below.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html


Topics 
 1. Action Item Review 
 2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark) 
 3. Test Cases Update (Michael) 
 4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue 
 5. Overloading of @CLASS 

Summary of Action Items 

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for
12-Feb meeting [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last
call on June 1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
where [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime
type, etc. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
supported by RDFa [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias
started [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case
production [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload
problem [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

Michael

________________________________________________________________________
____________________

                 				RDF in XHTML TF

5 Feb 2007

Agenda [1] 

[1]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0004.
html

See also: IRC log [2],  previous 2007-01-29 [3]

[2] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-irc
[3] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html

Attendees

 Present 
  Ben Adida, Ralph Swick, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton, Michael
Hausenblas 

 Regrets 

 Chair 
  Ben 

 Scribe 
  Michael, Ralph, Ben 

Contents

 Topics 
  1. Action Item Review 
  2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark) 
  3. Test Cases Update (Michael) 
  4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue 
  5. Overloading of @CLASS 

 Summary of Action Items 

________________________________________________________________________
____________________
 

<RalphS> Previous: 2007-01-29
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html

<Steven> gosh, look at the time :-)

<michaelhausenblas> ScribeNick: mhausenblas

<RalphS> Scribe: Michael

<RalphS> scribenick: michaelhausenblas

Steven: Spoke at W3C eGov meeting
... policy oriented people
... Ivan spoke about RDFa as well

<RalphS> European W3C Symposium on eGovernment

Steven: In Sep 2006 we planned to submit to dev track
... now a new deadline: Feb 12
... I'm planning to participate
... in Banff/Canada

<Steven> My talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/02-01-steven-egov/

Ben: There are a lot of things to point out

<benadida> ex: http://ben.adida.net/research/

<Steven> Ivan's talk: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0202-Gijon-IH/

<RalphS> Simile Exhibit

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

<benadida> quick point: Exhibit is not my project, I take no credit for
it :)

Steven: machine tags at flickr

<RalphS> Machine Tags [Karl Dubost]

Steven: namespace are there but not yet URIs

Welcome to the Semantic Web, flickr

Steven: now, a window of opportunity is open

Ben: We should talk to the flickr guys and invite them to go for RDFa

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]

1. Action Item Review
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case
production [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]

<Steven> Devtrack deadline is Feb 16th according to website

<scribe> ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07] [DROPPED]

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime
type, etc. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
supported by RDFa [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

<Steven> http://www2007.org/cfp-Developers.php

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload
problem [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08] [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last
call on June 1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> new (tracker) issues list

<RalphS> Ralph: I have a patch written by a summer student to get
tracker to output RDF

<scribe> ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias
started [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]

<scribe> ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

<RalphS> Michael: I wanted to transfer the closed issues

Michael will make a single issue for all closed issues

<RalphS> Ralph: one closed issue pointing to the HTML page would suffice
for me

2. Update on XHTML 1.1 Module Status (Mark)
Mark: I have been in contact with Sean
... will try to push work forward

Ben: This is a cruicial part of the spec
... approx schedule?

Mark: Unfortunatly not - might help if Steven jumps in as well

Steven: Sean and I have some 5 drafts on the edge
... I'll try to bring it forward

Ben: Is it possible by end of week to have the status?

Steven: Will put it on the HTML-WG agenda

Ben: Good. Please keep us up-to-date

3. Test Cases Update (Michael)
<RalphS> scribenick: ralphs

<michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite

->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0013.
html [RDFa] Test Cases [Michael]

Michael: I raise several questions:
... + What is the host (HTML, XHTML, etc.) for RDFa?
... + What parts of the spec do we test?
... + How do we partition tests? cf. [1]
... + Will we have a (semi-)automated test-environment?
... + Technical issues (test result format: N3, NTriple, etc.)
... + Legal issues (license)

Steven: what we are testing is whether the page generates the triples we
expect, right?

Michael: yes, but we're testing the transformations
... it makes sense to align with the RDF test cases

Steven: W3C has two sorts of test suites;
... the majority test the _specification, some test _implementations_
... we should decide which of these we want to do before we decide how
to go about it

Michael: per the QA test development FAQ terminology, I think we're
going for conformance testing

Steven: one of the questions we will need to answer is whether the spec
can exit CR

<michaelhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/QA/WG/2005/01/test-faq#why

Steven: we need to show interoperability test results for that
... to test the specification, for each part we would identify the
assertions and produce a test showing whether an implementation really
does this
... what QA calls 'conformance testing'

Michael: what about the host language?

Ben: our task is RDF in XHTML
... so I think our tests should be hosted in XHTML 1.1

Steven: sounds good

Mark: agree

<michaelhausenblas> so it reads XHTML 1.1 + RDFa module

Michael: are we chartered to produce a test suite?

Ben: yes, SWD WG is chartered to produce an XHTML 1.1 module

Ralph: test suites are a general expectation, there will not be any
objection [based on charter] to us working on it

Ben: add tests [from the RDF test suite] for those features we know
we're going to support

<michaelhausenblas>
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFaTestsuite/TestTypes

Ben: later add others as we resolve open issues of which RDF features to
include

Michael: on partitioning of tests, I took the structure from the RDF
Syntax document
... or we could do some other partitioning

Ben: [following Syntax document] looks like a good partitioning

Steven: for CR testing, following the syntax doc works best
... tests can be explicitly linked to the part of the spec you're trying
to test

Ben: it's harder to test my javascript library against conformance tests
than it is to test Elias' library

Michael: Elias' extractor should be tested against our test suite

Ben: the difference is that Elias' extractor have a REST interface
... other implementations, like my javascript implementation, don't have
REST interfaces
... we could propose automated testing for things that do have REST
interfaces

Mark: what about SPARQL-like tests?
... "given this input, here's what you should return"
... i.e. define our tests in terms of SPARQL

Michael: is SPARQL close enough to REC?

Ralph: yes :)

Mark: don't require implementing all of SPARQL but could be a way to
show that the outputs are the same even if they come from different
environments

Ben: I'm not sure this solves my problem; my implementation runs inside
a browswer
... I don't know how to drive a test in a way that would respect
javascript cross-domain limitations

Mark: I'm not suggesting that you retrieve data in the same manner as
SPARQL
... make a test file that contains lots of RDFa and a reference to your
script library
... the script runs and creates a bunch of RDF output, then we query
that output and compare the query results against another implementation

Ben: there's still some custom code I have to write for my
implementation
... it's more complicated for us to specify how to do this than for
Elias' libraries
... possible, just a lot more work

Michael: propose that for the first phase we only do semi-automatic
interface for REST implementations

Mark: I mention SPARQL because it's not clear what REST has to do with
our work
... could say instead that if you run a query over the output of an RDFa
tool you get these triples
... has nothing to do with the transport

Ben: the transport is just a test implementation method
... the javascript RDFa implementation is meant as a personal [tool]

Mark: understand that. If you think of this as a mathematical proof, how
do we prove that the expected triples are generated?
... it's a different thing to say that querying the result of RDFa
extraction produces the following result
... this allows a processor to produce additional triples that we might
not know about
... using SPARQL could hide a lot of implementation details

Ben: sounds like a different question beyond automation
... you're proposing that we use SPARQL to automate tests rather than
REST

Mark: yes. I'm thinking about this because I've been playing around with
Ivan's examples for the XML literal issue
... it's easy to use SPARQL to decide if Ivan's examples conform

Ben: have to explain to developers how to produce RDFa
... may be too much to have to tell them they need to buy-in to the
whole RDF world
... seems easy to say "it's just a big RDF triple store which you query"
but that may be too much

Steven: just say 'if you query it, you get this' doesn't leave much to
test
... like looking for P element

Mark: would something fail if it produces 12 triples instead of 10?

Steven: no, we could just say that the implementation has to produce _at
least_ these triples

Mark: the javascript bookmarklet could define the structure of json but
that would be very implementation-specific

Michael: I'd like to prepare a GUI sketch of an interface to a tester
for next week
... could then consider this in the light of SPARQL

<scribe> ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for
12-Feb meeting [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

Ben: my main worry is making sure that RDFa is simple
... simple enough for people to start adopting it
... we don't want to force everyone to read every document published by
the Semantic Web Working Groups

Mark: there can't be half measures about test suites
... on the other hand, Joe PublicAuthor only needs a nicely laid out
[HTML] page that shows what to expect; he doesn't need to be involved
with a test suite
... microformats current lack a validator; there's no way to validate
that you get what you expect

<michaelhausenblas> http://xmlarmyknife.org/docs/rdf/rules/

Michael: agree ...

<benadida> scribenick: benadida

Michael: NTriples might be easier to test
... legal issue, which license? Karl D. could help us there

Steven: W3C software license

Michael: we can postpone the legal discussion
... Wing and I will start working on the details of the test suite this
week

<michaelhausenblas> Scribe: Michael

<Steven>
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231

4. XMLLiteral vs xsd:string issue
<michaelhausenblas> Continues via mail

<michaelhausenblas> Michael will look at SPARQL issues

Mark: issue with language
... for equivalences

5. overloading of @CLASS
<michaelhausenblas> next telecon

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to get in contact with flickr w.r.t. machine tags
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Michael produce a GUI sketch of a test interface for
12-Feb meeting [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last
call on June 1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
where [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime
type, etc. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
supported by RDFa [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and RDFa
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias
started [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case
production [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload
problem [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
 
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 6 February 2007 08:07:24 GMT

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