Re: aria-describedat

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 12:24:28 -0500
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, "Steve Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, "Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, Leonie Watson <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "Markus Gylling" <markus.gylling@gmail.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, "David (Standards) Singer" <singer@apple.com>
Message-ID: <OFC143C675.B7C539AC-ON86257E9E.005F595B-86257E9E.005F9FAC@us.ibm.com>
Yes, you could replace <img> with <svg> content. As you are probably aware
MathJax supports an SVG rendering. If the appropriate semantics were
developed for Math we could apply it to the SVG drawing for Math. This
would require another ARIA module to be developed for Math and I am sure we
would be some challenges but it appears doable providing we get the
appropriate skilled Math experts to participate.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

To:	Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, "Gunderson, Jon R"
<jongund@illinois.edu>
Cc:	Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor"
<eoconnor@apple.com>, "Steve Faulkner"
<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>,
"Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>,
George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, Leonie Watson
<lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "Markus Gylling"
<markus.gylling@gmail.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org"
<public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force
<public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, PF
<public-pfwg@w3.org>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, "David
(Standards) Singer" <singer@apple.com>
Date:	08/10/2015 12:29 PM
Subject:	Re: aria-describedat

And in the case of SVG, you could just replacing the <img> with <svg> (and
all it’s children), correct?   What about math or canvas, would the same
work?   I am just trying to understand if the design pattern here is
specific to images or could work for other types of content.

Thanks,
Leonard

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger
Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM
To: "Gunderson, Jon R"
Cc: Michael Cooper, Ted O'Connor, Steve Faulkner, Janina Sajka, Judy
Brewer, James Craig, "kerscher@montana.com", Leonie Watson, Markus Gylling,
"public-digipub-ig@w3.org", W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force, HTML WG, PF,
SVG WG, "David (Standards) Singer"
Subject: RE: aria-describedat
Resent-From: SVG WG
Resent-Date: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 1:06 PM

yes. but I would not put the in the details. I would embed that in a Figure
with the figcaption having the details.

Note: this did not make the cut for HTML5. This would be HTML 5.1. but
right now we don't have support in IE, Edge, or Firefox.

Also, given that HTML5.1 is not done I would recommed this design pattern:

<figure>
<figcaption>
<details src="http://... foo.html">
<summary>Texas Roots</summary>
... optional content if the URL is not retrievable. ... like your table.
</details>
</figcaption>
<img src="xxxx">
</figure>

rendered into details.

Rich Schwerdtfeger

Inactive hide details for "Gunderson, Jon R" ---08/10/2015 09:14:42
AM---Rich, Is the potential coding pattern for a bar chart:"Gunderson, Jon
R" ---08/10/2015 09:14:42 AM---Rich, Is the potential coding pattern for a
bar chart:

From: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, George Kerscher <
kerscher@montana.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>,
"Steve Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Janina Sajka <
janina@rednote.net>, "Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, Leonie Watson <
lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, "Markus Gylling" <markus.gylling@gmail.com>, "
public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint
Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, PF <
public-pfwg@w3.org>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, "David (Standards)
Singer" <singer@apple.com>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
Date: 08/10/2015 09:14 AM
Subject: RE: aria-describedat

Rich,

Is the potential coding pattern for a bar chart:

<details>
<summary><img src=”bar-chart.png” alt=”My bar chart></summary>
<table>
…
<tbody>
….
</tbody>
</table>

</details>

This pattern could be modified to use an iframe to bring in external
content from a URL:

<details>
<summary><img src=”bar-chart.png” alt=”My bar chart></summary>
<iframe src=”bar-chart-data-table.html” aria-label=”Tabular data for bar
chart”/>
</details>

The lack of IE/Edge (i.e. any browser for that matter) support could be
compensated using Javascript libraries to emulate details/summary behavior.

Jon

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 8:36 AM
To: George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
Cc: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>; Ted O'Connor <eoconnor@apple.com>;
Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>; Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net
>; Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>; Leonie Watson <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>;
Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com>; public-digipub-ig@w3.org; W3C PF
- DPUB Joint Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>; HTMLWG WG <
public-html@w3.org>; PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>; SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org
>; David (Standards) Singer <singer@apple.com>; James Craig <
jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: Re: aria-describedat

Hi George,

We are in the process of making SVG more accessible by creating much richer
semantics that would enable an author to give the user access parts of the
capability. This will be much more accessible to blind user providing
authors are willing to create such drawings.

The Details view is a a way for authors to easily show a popup help for end
users about an object. The details object does not, however, pull in an
external URL to populate the details. This would need to be done either at
the server or the client. However, I suspect the problem for authors is
that these books are not generated dynamically today so you require some
sort of link to external help information if indeed it is significant in
size. The other issue is that IE has yet to implement the details element.
This is a massive problem for US Federal and state governments. From what I
can tell, Microsoft has no plans to update IE11 and Edge has yet to
implement <details>.

It appears that the best solution would be one where:
Details would support a source URL for content so that publishers
could create reusable descriptions. This could be engineered in
browsers so that the user's context could be moved appropriately.
Greater use of SVG in digital books. However, legacy SVG
accessibility does not work in IE today.

So, it appears the issues facing publishers are:

- SVG accessibility is not supported in IE or Edge.
- Details is not supported in IE or Edge.
- Annotations are also a solution but they are a ways off. We pushed off
accessible annotations to ARIA 2.0 for logistical reasons.
- You need a vehicle to access reusable descriptions
- You need a solution that will not take years to support in browsers as
you have the attention of publishers wrt. accessibility

So, going forward I am trying to assess the best avenues to address your
problem. So, I have some questions:

- What is the likelihood that publishers would support accessible SVG
drawings? This is also an authoring tool discussion and it would require a
greater level of understanding of accessibility.
- If the details element were supported in all browsers and it could take a
src attribute for content would this be a workable solution?
- Can the publishing community accept working with Edge vs. IE? As far as I
know no work is being done to make IE accessible.
- Can publishers accept polyfills for IE, regardless of the solution?
- What is the actual commitment, by publishers, to support the description
repository of the Diagram project?

It seems like aria-describedat is a stop gap to what you really want and
the problem is really comprehensive cross-browser support for other
features that if implemented might be a better solution.

Rich Schwerdtfeger

Inactive hide details for James Craig ---08/06/2015 04:13:10 AM---Thanks
for taking the time to write this up, George.  I apoloJames Craig
---08/06/2015 04:13:10 AM---Thanks for taking the time to write this up,
George.  I apologize that I do not have sufficient time

From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
To: George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Janina Sajka <
janina@rednote.net>, PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>, SVG WG <public-svg-wg@w3.org
>, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, Michael Cooper
<cooper@w3.org>, Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>, Markus Gylling <
markus.gylling@gmail.com>, public-digipub-ig@w3.org, HTMLWG WG <
public-html@w3.org>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, "David
(Standards) Singer" <singer@apple.com>, Leonie Watson <
lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: 08/06/2015 04:13 AM
Subject: Re: aria-describedat

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, George.

I apologize that I do not have sufficient time for in-depth point-by-point
rebuttals, and it is unlikely that I'll be able to attend the ARIA call
next week due to a standing conflict. In lieu of my attendance, I would
like to point out a few things the DPUB and WAI groups should consider.

1. Longdesc received formal objections from Apple and Mozilla, the
developers of the most accessible browsers on most major platforms, and
neither vendor took the decision to object lightly. Regardless of TBL's
final decision to release longdesc, the points made in Ted O'Connor's
#longobjection™ are still relevant to both @longdesc and @aria-describedat.

Formal Objection to advancing the HTML Image Description document

2. In additional to the technical objections, the @longdesc and
@aria-describedat attributes rely on a "separate but equal" design
philosophy that we in the WebKit and Apple Accessibility Engineering teams
consider to be Harmful for Accessibility. The specific points have been

3. I personally believe all of your points and examples below are
sufficiently addressed by one or more of the following approaches.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)

I hope you'll come to the conclusion that @aria-describedat is unnecessary
(even harmful), but can agree to disagree if we are at an impasse.

Cheers,
James Craig

PS. No response is necessary. Good luck with your work and the conference
call next week.
On Jul 13, 2015, at 7:14 AM, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
wrote:

Dear Rich and PF WG

Copying the DPub working group.

Below is the reply from the DPub working group you requested. We also
have three attached images for illustration.

We look forward to a time in August where we could gather on a call.

Best
George on behalf of the DPub Accessibility WG.

Begin message:

The Digital Publishing Interest Group asserts that the describedat
ARIA property  genuine utility to the publishing industry. The myriad
advantages of the attribute to the industry include:

1. Showing the user an extended enhancement without losing current
context.

Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
functionality.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
·         Not offered by linking in HTML in a standard way.
·         Context is necessary for accessibility. This is especially
important for anybody using a screen reader, or for any user with
cognitive impairments. However, since both magnification use and
mouse-less keyboard-less browsing can increase the difficulty of
navigating, providing easy links to context can be very important.
·         Publishing use case: An article in Example Magazine
contains multiple complex infographics that need to be described with
the current context.

2. Offering 3D printer models as enhanced alternatives to
viewing/printing for complex objects, such as a rotating
visualization or a relief map.

Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
functionality.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
·         Not offered by describedby, alt, longdesc. linking in HTML
can't wrap complex dynamic objects, or objects which are already
·         3D printing models of 3D visualizations will be a game
changer for blind/VI users of digital publications.
·         Publishing use case: An art history textbook with 3D
printing instructions for Bernini’s David

3. Providing structured markup in an extended enhancement.

Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
functionality.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
·         Not offered by describedby or alt.
·         Structured markup is vital for accessibility. A screen
the items in the list, cannot navigate via heading, and cannot have a
screen reader voice appropriately change language according to
language tag markup. Without structured markup a screen reader user
cannot easily skim or skip around the sections of a lengthy
extension.
·         Publishing use case: a linguistics textbook with complex
data visualizations needing rich description, including bulleted
lists and marked up multi-language sections. (See attached images for
examples.)

4. Providing an extended enhancement to any element, even one thatis

I'm not certain why you'd need a long desc for a link, but both <details>
and <svg> can be used generally. They do not need to be associated with
images.
·         Not offered in all cases with alt, longdesc, linking in
HTML.
·         Extended enhancements need to be available for all page
items for accessibility. Many images or complex visualizations on the
web are already links as part of site design. Those need to be
available to blind/VI users just as much as unlinked images.
·         Publishing use case: a historical map in a political
science reference manual, with Baltic States clearly marked on the
historical image links to a higher-definition map.

5. Providing an extended enhancement to any element, including a
dynamic one.

Both the <details> element and vector-based <svg> alternative provide this
functionality.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

·         Not offered in all cases with alt, longdesc, linking in
HTML.
·         Extended enhancements need to be available for all items
for accessibility. Many images or complex visualizations on the web
need to be available to blind/VI users just as much as simple images.
·         Publishing use case: a required reading quiz at a chapter
end with a manipulatable, dynamic timelapse overlay.

6. Offering a large number of very lengthy enhancements in a single
page without bloating the size and complexity of the source page

Standard linking and server-side content negotiation provide this
functionality.

That said, I am skeptical that your long descriptions would result in
significantly measurable size increase for a web page.

"Complexity" is a more subjective term so you could have a valid point
depending on the specific image examples and development stack, but please
consider this. The goal of simplifying authoring complexity should never
yield a result that provides a substandard experience to the end user.
·         Not offered by describedby, alt.
·         There are myriad reasons why this is an accessibility use
case. First of all, accessibility has to become something publishers
extended enhancements bloats the page such that it has a slow load
time for the users who will not access the extended enhancements,
publishers are less likely to add the enriched material. Moreover,
cognitive  impairments, as well as for users with visual impairments,
who are not necessarily informed of what is happening during page
·         Publishing use case: a picture book displaying a complex
four-part story, in which details from one story interact with
details from another.
·         Publishing use case: a biology textbook chapter with a very
large number of cell images, each of which needs to be described with
description of the cell components

conflict with visual design.
·         Not offered by linking in HTML.

I reject this hypothesis. Links can be styled to disappear completely
and/or display only when focused. As such, they provide all the
functionality of longdesc and describedat, but perform better in more
browsers and with more assistive technology.

In addition, both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
functionality and can be styled such that the design is not impacted.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
·         Although visual designers and layout designers need to
follow accessibility standards, ultimately visual design is often
decided in such a way that negotiation is impossible, sometimes
contractually and sometimes aesthetically. Putting a hyperlink after
the item with the anchor text "enhanced explanation of table 1.1"
relies on the ability to modify layout and visual representation.
Exposing the enhancements via user agent functionality or adaptive
technology doesn't have an influence on the visual design.
·         Publishing use case: a publisher receives the contract for
creating an ebook of the original draft of Samuel Beckett's Waiting
for Godot. The terms of Samuel Beckett's will specify that no words
be visible on the page which were not written by Beckett himself, and
the visual layout be as close to his original draft as is possible.

8. Reusable, updateable and programmatically referenceable extended
enhancements.

Both the <details> element and <svg> alternatives provide this
functionality.

- Figure with details element: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/details/

- Accessible vector graphics in SVG: http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg/

- Raster graphics in an SVG Wrapper: (no example available)
·         Not offered by describedby, alt
·         Publishers are most likely to rapidly implement
accessibility practices that have a sustainable workflow.
·         Publishing use case: an online test manufacturer uses the
same complex table in a whole series of online tests;  in the three
different e-books they publish about practicing for the tests; and in
the answer key provided to test scorers. They write a single extended
enhancement and store it in a database along with the ID of the
table. When the test is released, the describedat attribute is added
available online. After the tests have been released and pushed to
test centers, the test manufacturer discovers an error in the complex
table description. They update a single description.
Sample Markup for  a subset of these use cases included at end.
We acknowledge that concern has been raised over the inability to
access online resources in an offline source document. However, we
in the Digital Publishing space to collapse the currently-sharp
distinction between online and offline resources. EPUB+WEB <
https://w3c.github.io/epubweb/> is the primary umbrella project
collecting all the avenues of research in this space.
Annotations may address some of these use case, but it is not yet a
Recommendation, and accessibility needs to be further addressed in
the Draft.
The DPUB IG has open and active channels of communication with the
BISG accessibility team, and is confident that the publishing
industry is passionate about accessibility at this moment, and is
very willing to attempt to implement standards formalized by the W3C
and implemented in user agents. The use cases above are problems the
publishing industry must solve in the near future, and it is looking
to the W3C for help formulating solutions. In the last several
months, there has been a whirlwind of activity around accessibility
in the publishing community. Every industry organization (more than
30) has a task force dedicated to accessibility, to the point that
several of us are working to consolidate efforts. This query comes at
a time of heightened awareness in the publishing world, as several
key actors are poised to act. Publishers are embracing the full suite
of accessibility best practices, and describedat is a powerful tool.
We will evangelize this as the best option, and they have shown they
are poised to listen.
Sample Markup:
Example for Use Case 2.
<img src="http://www.worldmapsonline.com/images/HS432.jpg"
alt="Relief map of the United States"
Example for Use Case 5.
On a Google maps time lapse view used in a dynamic textbook, eg:

<div jstcache="517" class="widget-timemachine-dropdown-container"
aria-describedat="TimeMachineTextualEnhancement.html"> ... </div>
Example for Use Case 6. Also works as an example for Use Case 3.
File 1: black-and-white.html
<img src="http://students.english.ilstu.edu/jmklass/images/black2.jpg

"
alt="David Macauley's Black and White, pages 5-6"
aria-describedat="/foo/bw56.html">
File 2: bw56.html
<h1>David Macauley's Black and White, pages 5-6</h1>
<!-- TOC here -->
<h2>Story 1: Seeing Things</h2>
<h3>Art Style</h3>
...
<h3>Text</h3>
...
<h3>Art Style</h3>
...
<h3>Image description</h3>
...
<!-- repeat for stories 2-4 -->
<h2>Inter-story Interaction</h2>
<!-- Describe the interaction between stories 2 and 4 as shown in the
image -->

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 6:54 AM
To: George Kerscher; janina@rednote.net
Cc: PF; SVG WG; public-dpub-aria@w3.org; cooper@w3.org;
jbrewer@w3.org; Markus Gylling
Subject: aria-describedat

George, Janina,

As you know, we put aria-describedat in the ARIA 1.1 spec., however
the caviat for it staying was that we see adequate support from a
number of key publishers that they would commit to using it if we
actually kept it in the specification. This was months ago. Janina
had promised me that after I came back from vacation that we would
see something either way from publishers. I have been back two weeks
now and there has been no movement.

At this point I am trying to lock down the ARIA 1.1 specification so
that we can work on ARIA 2.0 which will address critical features
such as extensibility and greater support for web applications. Also,
the group has additional modules in development for digital
publishing and graphics that are coming in parallel that are taxing
people's time.

So, allowing for possible mis-communications between PF and the
publishers I am going to give to mid-August to see a strong response
from publishers. If we do not see it I am going to propose that
aria-describedat be removed from the ARIA 1.1 specification.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

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