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Minutes, 11 September 2014 SVG WG telcon

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:18:24 +0200
To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.xl00oyxwdhsuf5@gnorps>
Minutes:


     http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html


as text:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

11 Sep 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0012.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
    Regrets
           Dirk, Cameron

    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           ed, nikos_

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Proposed Sydney F2F dates
          2. [6]Handling of trailing semicolons in list attributes
          3. [7]Pointer events test review
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2014

    <ed> ScribeNick: ed

Proposed Sydney F2F dates

    CSSWG 9th - 10th

    FXTF 11th

    SVGWG 12th - 13th

    <birtles> fine with me

    ed: these are the proposed dates from the CSS WG, they're
    awaiting our feedback on this

    tav: long travel for just two days of meetings

    ed: tav, would you rather have more days for the svg part?

    tav: yes, one additional day would be good
    ... suggest 12-14 th Feb

    <stakagi> zakim ??P10 is me

    ed: the 14th is a saturday, everyone ok with that?

    nikos: valentines day
    ... doesn't bother me though

    ed: 14th is fine with me

    RESOLUTION: the SVG WG will meed in Sydney, 12 - 14th February
    2015

    tav: for the FXTF there are some issues surrounding text that
    we should handle, like fill and stroke on text
    ... could that be done that day?

    ed: sounds like a good topic for FXTF yes

    [9]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015

       [9] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update
    [10]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015
    with dates and registration form [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html#action01]

      [10] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3669 - Update
    [12]https://www.w3.org/graphics/svg/wg/wiki/f2f/sydney_2015
    with dates and registration form [on Erik Dahlström - due
    2014-09-18].

      [12] https://www.w3.org/graphics/svg/wg/wiki/f2f/sydney_2015

Handling of trailing semicolons in list attributes

    <nikos_> scribenick: nikos_

    ed: This is a bug that came up on blink. keySplines didn't work
    with a trailing semi-colo. There was no animation

    <ed> [13]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705236

      [13] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705236

    ed: there's some background regarding how trailing semi-colons
    are handled

    <ed> values, keyTimes,

    <ed> keySplines, keyPoints, begin, end

    ed: think most browsers are treating these the same way, except
    for keySplines and the case where you have two or more
    semi-colons at the end - indicating an empty value
    ... I guess the only thing that differs is the spec says
    something different than what implementations are doing
    ... proposal is to update spec to match implementations
    ... and to define multiple semi-colons means an empty value
    ... I saw Dr Hoffman replied - he seems to be in dissagreement

    <ed>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0020.ht
    ml

      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0020.html

    birtles: think his concern is compatibility of specs, not of
    browsers. He said svg 2 should be compatible with svg 1 in
    terms of what the spec says
    ... but that's not taking into account the accessibility issue
    of the content
    ... there's content that relies on ignoring the trailing
    semi-colon

    ed: I think that's a fair point
    ... people seem to expect that a trailing semi-colon is ignored
    ... rather than it meaning there's an empty value
    ... I think the implementation in Gecko is such that when you
    have two semi-colons then there is an empty value. But don't
    think that's the case in Blink
    ... I'd be ok in changing that in Blink
    ... at the same time I'd also like to align other separators
    ... trailing commas are not always ignored and I think they
    should be
    ... all browsers I tested except FF allow trailing commas

    <ed> [15]http://jsfiddle.net/u6s671gb/4/

      [15] http://jsfiddle.net/u6s671gb/4/

    ed: that's a simple test case
    ... you'll see there's a comma at the end of the y and rotate
    ... if it's rotated then trailing comma is allowed
    ... I'm suggesting we allow trailing commas in all list
    attributes
    ... in addition to the original proposal regarding semi-colons

    <ed>
    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Nov/0136.ht
    ml

      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Nov/0136.html

    ed: anyone disagree with this change?

    Tav: it would basically just break badly written svg?

    ed: yes
    ... trailing commas already works in all browsers except FF and
    I'm pretty sure it's been like that for a while
    ... I'd be surprised if much content relied on the specific
    behaviour with semi-colons

    <birtles> it seems good to me, not allowing trailing commas is
    a well-known pain point with json

    Tav: I'm mostly fine but I think we should ask Dr Hoffman if he
    has content that will break with this change

    <birtles> I believe Ikivo Animator exported content with
    trailing semi-colons and they agreed to fix the bug but never
    released another version

    <birtles> and the content generated with the buggy version
    still exists

    ed: I think Ikivo was the main source of additional semi-colons

    Tav: is this breaking content from Ikivo?

    ed: yes if we do something other than ignore trailing
    semi-colons then content would break
    ... it was a bug in their software, but content is out there
    ... may not be very much though

    shepazu: it's an easy fix for the content
    ... we need to have one way of doing it right?

    Tav: I would be happy if we made this change if it's
    demonstrated that there's not much content out there using this

    shepazu: we should either just do it for a particular reason
    (e.g. interoperability) or not do it
    ... it's going to be difficult to demonstrate the amount of
    content out there that's using this
    ... let's just base it on the merits of the idea
    ... Ikivo content is unlikely to be used with an SVG 2 user
    agent
    ... is the proposed change more consistent with the internal
    model or not?

    birtles: in JS you can use trailing commas but in JSON you
    can't
    ... and that causes confusion for people
    ... people expect trailing commas will be ignored

    shepazu: is there any analog in CSS?

    ed: I think we should allow trailing commas
    ... that's what 3 of 4 user agents do at the moment
    ... and we should allow trailing semi colons for all smil
    attributes
    ... if you want an empty value two semi-colons are required
    ... which means you can't have an empty value at the end of the
    list
    ... I don't see the value in keeping the spec as is

    Tav: anyone object to the proposal? I'm not going to

    RESOLUTION: accept Brian's proposal for handling trailing
    semi-colons on animation attributes
    ... apply Brian's proposal to trailing commas for consistency

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to apply changes relating
    to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas [recorded
    in [17]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3670 - Update svg 2 to apply changes
    relating to handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas
    [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-09-18].

Pointer events test review

    <ed>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0009.ht
    ml

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0009.html

    ed: the pointer events WG has suggested that we review one of
    their tests for the pointer events spec
    ... anyone familiar with the specification?
    ... looking for someone to commit to reviewing the svg tests
    ... not hearing any volunteers
    ... they emailed the mailing lists so I guess anyone could
    review
    ... but it'd be easier if one of us reviewed
    ... I'll leave that as an open request

    shepazu: the test contains things like scroll values

    <shepazu>
    [19]https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1121/files

      [19] https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1121/files

    shepazu: it has target0.scrollLeft
    ... do we have scroll in SVG?

    <ed> <div id="target0">

    shepazu: is this really a test of pointer events in svg or in
    an img element?

    ed: I haven't read the spec but I think it's trying to test
    something that doesn't happen on the SVG DOM

    shepazu: I'd like to give them some feedback on this test. It
    seems they're just treating svg as a block level element
    ... it's not wrong but it's not really a test for SVG

    ed: I think it's trying to test touch-ACTION:none on the svg
    ... which means the element shouldn't trigger any default touch
    events

    shepazu: there's a few tests moving the element different
    directions
    ... it's not testing svg, just a block level element
    ... so it's not testing pointer events on SVG as such

    nikos: it looks that way to me

    ed: I think that's fair
    ... you could replace the svg element with another html element

    shepazu: do we have examples of some sort of test that might be
    useful for their purposes?
    ... nothing springs to mind

    ed: I think it would be a good idea to have some more svg tests
    if they want to test touch events on svg

    shepazu: I'll contact the pointer events group

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update
    https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2015 with
    dates and registration form [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to apply changes relating to
    handling trailing semi-colons and trailing commas [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [22]scribe.perl version
     1.138 ([23]CVS log)
     $Date: 2014-09-11 13:54:08 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [22] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [23] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [24]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/

      [24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/commans/commas/
Found ScribeNick: ed
Found ScribeNick: nikos_
Inferring Scribes: ed, nikos_
Scribes: ed, nikos_
ScribeNicks: ed, nikos_

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: IPcaller P10 P6 P8 Rich_Schwerdtfeger birtles ed https
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  tav trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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         <dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: Dirk Cameron
Agenda: [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0012.htm
l
Found Date: 11 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [26]http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ed erik

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0012.html
      [26] http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-svg-minutes.html


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      [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Web Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Received on Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:19:09 UTC

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