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Minutes, 31 July 2014 SVG WG telcon

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:30:00 +0200
To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.xju6ga1ndhsuf5@gnorps>
Minutes as html:

     http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html

and as text:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

31 Jul 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jul/0037.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Smailus, nikos_, [IPcaller], heycam, ed, Tav, stakagi,
           Doug_Schepers

    Regrets
    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           Nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Should css pseudo-elements (first-line,
             first-letter) be required in SVG2?
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 31 July 2014

    <Smailus> Not me this time, I'm on mute.

    <scribe> scribe: Nikos

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos_

Should css pseudo-elements (first-line, first-letter) be required in
SVG2?

    heycam: are you asking specifically for these two?

    ed: those are the two that occur in the css 3 spec
    ... not sure if more have been added in css 4
    ... FF has support for first-line and first-letter
    ... we have a bug on blink to support it
    ... do we want to have this in SVG or not?

    heycam: I think we should have it
    ... I added support because it was easy to do

    ed: I suspect Blink implementation will be simple

    <TabAtkins> Have to define nesting compatibly with CSS
    (which'll be tricky, because we don't define nesting well in
    the first place).

    Tav: I think we'll have a hard time implementing but I think
    it's a good idea

    <TabAtkins> Because they can cross a <tref>.

    Tav: it doesn't work in FF for fill

    <TabAtkins> Sorry, <tspan>.

    <heycam> TabAtkins, tref has been removed

    ed: that's right

    <heycam> TabAtkins, ok

    heycam: the other pseudo elements from css 2.1, the generated
    content ones, those FF doesn't support I don't think
    ... they were tricky to handle
    ... in principle I don't think we need to not support them

    nikos: why were some of the pseudo classes left out?

    ed: they're specific to HTML mostly

    <TabAtkins> Until we define interop between SVG and CSS layout
    models, agree that the other pseudos like ::before aren't
    really includable.

    ed: required the CSS layout engine which SVG didn't have
    ... it's hard to add generated content in SVG because you'd
    need to wrap it in a text element

    <heycam> g::before { shape-inside: ... }

    ed: so if we were to require the first-line and first-letter
    pseudo elements, how much would we need to define in the SVG
    spec? if anything?

    <TabAtkins> I mean, we could treat it as a <text>.

    <TabAtkins> ed: Need to define which SVG properties apply to
    them.

    heycam: I haven't looked at the state of the text chapter
    recently. But if we have wording that says take this DOM
    subtree and treat text elements as blocks and tspans as inline
    and layout according to CSS box model, etc

    <TabAtkins> Only those that don't expose that they may be
    broken up into multiple elements.

    heycam: then you mention first-line and first-letter should be
    included as part of that

    <ed> TabAtkins: yes... but without giving a y position too at
    the same time it would be outside the viewport in svg

    <TabAtkins> Right, you'd support x/y props on them too in that
    case.

    heycam: it should just be a small change
    ... not sure about Tab's concerns. Perhaps he can go into more
    detail in an email?

    <heycam> concerns re nesting

    <TabAtkins> Yup, will send.

    ed: second half of my question was related to the outcome of
    this. Should we require CSS selectors in SVG or is that just
    going to fall out from requiring other CSS specs?

    heycam: not sure if any of the CSS specs we've talked about
    have a strict requirement on a particular version of selectors
    ... so it might be good for us to have a requirement for a
    particular version

    ED: currently we have an informal reference. We could make it
    normative

    heycam: various parts of CSS that we're not relying on for SVG
    specific things. Then stuff that's in CSS 2 is probably good
    enough

    Tav: will we be able to select 3rd rect in a group?

    heycam: not sure which version of selectors that is

    ed: think it's 3

    <ed> [7]http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#structural-pseudos

       [7] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#structural-pseudos

    heycam: maybe we should decide what the baseline version of
    features that SVG should support

    <TabAtkins> Man, don't require a particular level. That's
    silly. Just point to Selectors and let people support the
    latest version.

    heycam: don't know how far ahead we should normatively require
    when they're pretty orthogonal things

    <TabAtkins> CSS doesn't require a particular version of
    Selectors.

    <heycam> TabAtkins, how about a minimum version?

    Tav: would be interesting to know if anyone supports 3rd rect
    in a group now

    <TabAtkins> Sure.

    heycam: think it should work

    ed: I think so
    ... don't know if we have wording in the spec about not
    supporting style sheets

    heycam: I think we had the discussion about requiring style
    sheets
    ... but not sure spec changes have been done

    ed: think we've already resolved to have multi-line text. I
    think first-line makes sense once that's in

    <TabAtkins> Agree.

    ed: do we want to resolve on first-line and first-letter now or
    wait for more feedback?

    heycam: Some details to finalise, but I think it makes sense to
    resolve now

    RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will require ::first-line and ::first-letter
    from CSS selectors

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to add ::first-line and ::first-letter to
    SVG 2 [recorded in
    [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3635 - Add ::first-line and
    ::first-letter to svg 2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-08-07].

    Tav: can you do selectors inside the style attribute?

    ed: no don't think so

    Tav: So this would be the first case when you actually need a
    style sheet

    heycam: also if you want to have :visited, :hover, etc

    ed: selectors in general
    ... regarding the second part of the question, do we require
    CSS3 selectors
    ... do we want to resolve on that now too?

    <TabAtkins> We tried selectors inside of style years ago, but
    didn't end up doing it.

    ed: currently we reference a minimum version

    heycam: don't think we have any wording about supporting later
    versions of CSS
    ... might be good to have something in the style chapter
    ... I think in general we should require the earliest specs
    that we actually need for features
    ... so if we don't require any CSS3 features just stick with
    the older version
    ... and say if you want to support later features that's fine

    ed: I can take the action to state that

    heycam: do you want to tackle that in a general fashion in the
    style chapter?

    ed: yes just a paragraph in there

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to add wording to SVG 2 to allow later
    versions of CSS [recorded in
    [9]http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3636 - Add wording to svg 2 to allow
    later versions of css [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-08-07].

    <heycam>
    [10]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Age
    nda_proposals

      [10]  
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agenda_proposals

    <ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to add ::first-line and ::first-letter to
    SVG 2 [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to add wording to SVG 2 to allow later
    versions of CSS [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
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     $Date: 2014-07-31 13:27:52 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Found Date: 31 Jul 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2014/07/31-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: erik

      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jul/0037.html
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-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Web Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Received on Thursday, 31 July 2014 13:30:31 UTC

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