- From: Dirk Schulze <dschulze@adobe.com>
- Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:32:09 -0700
- To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org WG" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>, "www-svg@w3.org list" <www-svg@w3.org>
Hi,
Here are the meeting minutes of the call today[1]:
Greetings,
Dirk
[1] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
04 Apr 2013
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun/0005.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
krit
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]tecon time
2. [6]image-rendering property
3. [7]meeting with IDPF
4. [8]CSS4 Color and merging SVG Color
* [9]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 04 April 2013
calling in in a moment
<Tav> yes
<scribe> scribeNick: krit
tecon time
heycam: sent a mail with possible options
Tav: what about switching bi-weekly
heycam: thought about that
krit: might be confusing
heycam: what about 6AM?
Tav: would work for me
heycam: it is 9PM PST
richardschwerdtfeger: well, I am in the middle
... would be 12 in the morning
heycam: should we have 60min instead?
krit: yes
heycam: we might tighten up conversation
shepazu: if we have a frequent time to call in, it is managable
krit: agree
heycam: I put up a doodle and we figure it out
image-rendering property
Tav: we experimented with inscaling and outscaling
... I looke in CSS and saw that it has a crisp edges proposal
... wich seemed to be a good idea
... so if you scale, the pixels are preserved
... not filtered and get blurry
<heycam>
[10]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#image-rendering
[10] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-images/#image-rendering
Tav: in my email there is a lingk to the draft
tav reads the proposal
shepazu: my suggestion SVG should simply do as if the image
would be in HTML
krit: image-rendering was implement in SVG already
... with the same purpose
Tav: well, you could choose for quality or speed
krit: I think this should move to CSS WG
... it also does what Tav wants
Tav: we should say what it means for SVG
krit: not really
heycam: ok so we should reference the CSS spec.
krit: I think CSS should override the SVG defintion and we do
not reference CSS IMage as long as it is not in a further step
<ed> typically image-rendering='optimizeSpeed' in svg content
means "please use nearest-neighbor", and 'optimizeQuality'
means use something better than nearest-neighbor (typically
bilinear)
<ed> not sure if content depends on it, but 'auto' is different
shepazu: we cold just drop it from SVG2 and let CSS keep it up
... if someone wants it, he can use SVG1.1 defintion
Tav: there should be a notification
krit: can we put this note in the appendix?
Tav: it would be one step more for people to get the necessary
information
shepazu: what about a compromise where we have a detailed
appendix and short notes in the spec referencing the Appendix
heycam: I thought about that as well about all referenced specs
Tav: I just want to have a short note
heycam: fine with me
ed: what about the degault value
krit: it is still auto
ed: sure but I want to be able to optimise speed
... auto means smoothing, which is undesirable in at least all
'optimizeSpeed' content I've made
krit: that is the default anyway
<ed> crisp-edges would probably be what I'd expect
optimizeSpeed to be resolved as
<ed> or perhaps as 'pixelated'
krit: I think we should move discussion to www-style and argue
there if there are concerns
shepazu: optimization may have very different effects even
between implementations. I think this property does not
influence existing content a lot
... I think we should let the CSS WG deal with it
heycam: it is worth bringing it up
... to inform authors about optimized speed
krit: I am fine with leaving it now
heycam: we leave it and add a note that CSS WG is working on
it. If CSS WG is quicker, we remove it and add a reference to
it
<scribe> ACTION: tav to add a note to image-rendering property
that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3480 - Add a note to image-rendering
property that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [on
Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].
<Tav>
[12]https://launchpadlibrarian.net/136181479/scaling_test.svg
[12] https://launchpadlibrarian.net/136181479/scaling_test.svg
Tav: ther is a nother issue
... open the image i posted in the mail and change the zoom
heycam: that is the bilienar filtering that you see
Tav: I think it is actually the color spacwe
... one that you see is sRGB, the other is linear
krit: isn't it an implementation issue
Tav: yes, but all three browsers do that because they use sRGB
... And I don't think that this is the right thing to do
... in the future when people use GPU it will be easy for themm
to switch color spaces
<ed> the svg one is using a <pattern>, is it different if you
use <image xlink:href="data:image/svg+xml..." />?
cabanier: it depends more on how you scale. I do not think that
switching the color space is correct
shepazu: I don't think that is a SVG issue, but more CSS
cabanier: I do not think that you change color space on scaling
... transforms and color space are different thing
Tav: if I zoom in the color should not change
krit: I think this is more an issue of antialiasing, not color
space
<shepazu> (is this different for SVG vs HTML? if not, why are
we talking about it in an SVG telcon, vs discussing it on
www-style?)
krit: there would definitely be a visible difference on
changing color space on scaling and you can not know if you are
scaling in a motion or not
cabanier: why specifying it in SVG if you think that is an
issue in the implementation?
krit: we should move this to the mailing list and disucss it
with the CSS WG
shepazu: I think we should not do our own color stuff, i think
it should be in CSS
Tav: If SVG says it is something that we want to do, then we
should drive it
shepazu: who is doing the color stuff in SVG
krit: Chris
cabanier: but Tab took over on CSS4 Color
<scribe> ACTION: Tav produce an exmaple, demonstrating how
different color space interpolation effects image scaling
[recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3481 - Produce an exmaple,
demonstrating how different color space interpolation effects
image scaling [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-04-11].
Tav: I saw the same issue on filters
krit: makes sense, but depends on the input
Tav: are browsers interestef in color interpolation?
cabanier: yes it is in there
... CSS4 Color
<heycam>
[14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#color-management
[14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#color-management
Tav: that would solve some problems that I see with meshes
cabanier: this is a property that switches between DeviceRGB
and sRGB
krit: yes, that is what we have in WebKit
... in SVG we have color-interpoaltion that switches between
sRGB and linearRGB
heycam: I think color-interpolation should go to CSS4 Color
krit: there is just one problem: SVG is sRGB by default.
Implemeentd is DeviceRGB
cabanier: don't think CSS changes
... that
krit: I think it does, because it has auto, which is DeviceRGB
cabanier: oh
krit: in reality no one implements sRGB but DeviceRGB (all
browsers and tools)
heycam: I don' think it says anything about using sRGB by
default on images
krit: color-interpolation is not limited to images but effects
everything
heycam: you are aying CSS should call it color-interpolation?
krit: yes, but we would need to add auto and would need to say
that auto means sRGB
... or we say the truth and use DeviceRGB instead
... as every implementation does anyway
<scribe> ACTION: krit to ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation
instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto [recorded
in [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3482 - Ask CSS WG to use
color-interpolation instead (as defined in SVG) with the
addotion of auto [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].
<scribe> ACTION: krit to figure out if we should use sRGB or
DeviceRGB on SVG [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3483 - Figure out if we should use
sRGB or DeviceRGB on SVG [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-04-11].
meeting with IDPF
s/IDPF/IDPF/
shepazu: I would not be able to go there
... IDPF is happeing at Keio Mita campus
... 25min appart by train
... agenda is about internationalization issues
... are any of you interested in this topic?
heycam: you said that they may have interest in SVG and want
our opinion about that?
<richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
shepazu: I think the focus is on electrical publishing
richardschwerdtfeger: It is really important in MathML
... I'd like to have a open format in documetns
... I would like to see them SVG2
... which is important in the future
... ARIA and other accesibility things
shepazu: I am not convinced if the timing is right
... and especially in the context of this meeting
... the focus on internationalizing
resolve: we meet from monday to wednesday
shepazu: I will talk with the organizers
... another option is to invite them to one of our sessions
<birtles> by the way, I started adding some details for the
Tokyo F2F to
[17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Tokyo_2013, more
hotel suggestions etc. to come
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Tokyo_2013
<heycam> cool
shepazu: why not invite some to a telcon
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3484 - Invite IDPF people to a SVG
telcon [on Doug Schepers - due 2013-04-11].
CSS4 Color and merging SVG Color
krit: tab sugeested to pick up SVG color things to CSS4 color
... ICC color profiles have been in SVG1.1 already. Assuming
that there are viewers with support for ICC, it is fine to have
it in SVG2 for now. But LAB is new. For browsers it makes sense
if it is part of CSS4 Color
heycam: I am more affraid on relying on future specs in SVG2
... so new stuff can go to CSS4 Color
... not sure about old studd
stuff
<richardschwerdtfeger> dropping
heycam: they are in SVG2 now, because they were in SVG Color
1.2
... and we decided to merge them again with SVG2
... I want to hear ChrisL s opinion first
... I was on removing everything which is in CSS3 Color
... In the future it makes sense to have everything in CSS
Color
... Are you concerned they don't get implemented in browsers
and will be removed anyway?
krit: yes
heycam: we can around that problem in CR
<heycam> we could have a new conformance class for "color
managed implementation"
krit: I think we should collect data about active SVG viewer
implementations
... I am saying that colors in general should be managed by CSS
Color
heycam: I agree, but want Chris's input
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: krit to ask CSS WG to use color-interpolation
instead (as defined in SVG) with the addotion of auto [recorded
in [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: krit to figure out if we should use sRGB or
DeviceRGB on SVG [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu to invite IDPF people to a SVG telcon
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Tav produce an exmaple, demonstrating how
different color space interpolation effects image scaling
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: tav to add a note to image-rendering property
that CSS WG is dealing with a new version of it [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [24]scribe.perl version
1.137 ([25]CVS log)
$Date: 2013-04-04 22:30:41 $
__________________________________________________________
[24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
Check for newer version at [26]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/cut/tighten/
Succeeded: s/late to bring/worth bringing/
Succeeded: s/ auto means smoothing/ auto means smoothing, which is undes
irable in at least all 'optimizeSpeed' content I've made/
Succeeded: s/more SVG/more CSS/
Succeeded: s/Tav: there/krit: there/
Succeeded: s/T/P/
FAILED: s/IDTF/IDPF/
Succeeded: s/media/Keio Mita/
Succeeded: s/IDTF/IDPF/
Found ScribeNick: krit
Inferring Scribes: krit
WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Doug_Schepers IPcaller Rich_Schwerdtfeger Tav aaaa aab
b aacc birtles cabanier ed heycam https joined krit leaverou nikos resol
ve richardschwerdtfeger scribeNick shepazu svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
<dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
<dbooth> Present+ amy
Agenda: [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun
/0005.html
Found Date: 04 Apr 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: krit shepazu tav
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013AprJun/0005.html
[28] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/04-svg-minutes.html
WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
End of [29]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Thursday, 4 April 2013 22:32:46 UTC