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Minutes October 25, 2012 SVG WG Telcon

From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:09:25 +1100
Message-ID: <5089B895.2040108@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: <www-svg@w3.org>
Hi all,
Minutes from today's telcon

http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html,text

  and as text:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

25 Oct 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0016.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
    Regrets
           cyril

    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Percentage values for 'transform' on pattern,
             linear/radialGradient,
          2. [6]spreadMethod on gradients
          3. [7]Publication schedule for SVG2
          4. [8]Filter Effects
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 25 October 2012

    <krit> give me a second

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos

Percentage values for 'transform' on pattern, linear/radialGradient,

    clipPath

    krit: what does % on transform functions mean?
    ... is it relative to the bounding box of the object, i.e. a
    rect
    ... another possibility is user space, or the viewport
    ... so the percentage would be a percentage of the dimension of
    the viewport
    ... if you compare with transforms, it's relative to the
    bounding box
    ... I would like to do the same with resources, if you have
    clippath with a transform, it's relative to the bounding box

    nikos: I agree with you

    ed: It makes more sense to have it that way

    Tav: for somethings, don't we allow the user to select?

    krit: there is no way to select for transform
    ... it is also conformant with how we have done it in the psat

    nikos: what about rotation?

    krit: we don't accept percentage for rotate

    Tav: using the bounding box is easier in the code
    ... just to be clear, we are talking about bounding box without
    markers or stroke?

    krit: the object bounding box
    ... it does not include stroke or markers

    resolution: percentage values on transform functions will be
    relative to the object bounding box of the referencing element

spreadMethod on gradients

    <Tav> [10]http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html

      [10] http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/RADIALGRAD/index.html

    Tav: I started looking at the changes to gradients, I had a
    question
    ... what do we do for the different spread methods?
    ... what confused me, was the second figure (on that page)

    krit: the big white circle should be filled with pad
    ... can we agree that spread methods are still useful?

    Tav: well it would be inconsistent if you didn't have them

    krit: what I really miss, is having spreadMethod none

    Tav: I thought about that and was going to suggest it until I
    realised Canvas always does padding

    krit: for gradients, I want it to be compatible with Canvas,
    doesn't mean we can't do more

    Tav: I'm not sure how useful none is

    ed: it would mean you wouldn't fill the shape potentially, I'm
    not sure how useful it is either

    krit: the only graphics library I know that doesn't support
    none is core graphics, I think it could be useful

    Tav: if you look at fig 5, I wanted to check if it's rendered
    correctly?

    krit: it is

    Tav: the only difference between SVG and Canvas, is what
    happens when the start and end circle are touching

    krit: there shouldn't be a difference
    ... you mean fully overlapping right?

    Tav: no I mean touching one point (fig 7)
    ... Canvas does not fill the entire plane, SVG does

    krit: I'm not sure about that
    ... if you think about infinite big circles, the right side can
    never be filled

    Tav: if you look at the SVG spec, it says you average the
    colours and fill the right part with the averaged value

    krit: It should do exactly as you have drawn in fig7

    Tav: it would be different if you had spreadMethod=reflect or
    repeat

    ed: the spreadMethod is just how to repeat the colours, not the
    shape

    krit: correct

    <Tav>
    [11]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#RadialGradientNo
    tes

      [11] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#RadialGradientNotes

    nikos: is there any difference if the focal circle touches the
    outer circle, or if the focal circle touches the outer circle?

    krit: there should be no difference
    ... in Canvas the area to the right should be transparent
    ... mathematically it is transparent, but it could be specced
    to be filled
    ... do we want consistency?

    ed: for CSS gradient the same problem applies, I think Tab was
    saying that the CSS group preferred the averaging
    ... we have discussed this before

    krit: it's a question of whether we want to be compatible with
    CSS gradients or with HTML Canvas

    ed: in general I find it nice if the paint servers fully fill
    the given shape

    nikos: since we are allowing CSS gradient paint servers, why
    not spec the opposite in SVG, then you can select one or the
    other?

    krit: for Webkit, I'm not sure if it would be implemented
    ... I'm not sure if this edge case is even implemented for CSS
    gradients

    Tav: what is the status of the CSS spec? could they change it?

    <scribe> ACTION: Krit to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find Krit. You can review and
    register nicknames at
    <[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users%3E.

    <scribe> ACTION: krit to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find krit. You can review and
    register nicknames at
    <[15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.

      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users%3E.

    <scribe> ACTION: dirk to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3394 - Craft some test cases to
    compare the implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [on
    Dirk Schulze - due 2012-11-01].

    <ed> [17]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients

      [17] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#radial-gradients

    ed: look at 4.2.3 for degenerate cases

    krit: in this case, CSS gradients don't have focal radius
    ... if they have a radius of zero, what do they paint?
    ... I don't think this is the use case we are looking for

    <krit> [18]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#conic-gradients

      [18] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#conic-gradients

    krit: CSS gradients doesn't matter, because you don't specify
    the bounds of the outer circle
    ... it's not specified in CSS 4 either

    ed: so for existing content, it would mean that you would see
    through some parts of the shape?

    krit: the problem is webkit and firefox always pushed the focal
    point inside the circle
    ... I think Opera is doing something similar

    ed: I'm leaning towards aligning with Canvas, but I would like
    to see some testcases

    krit: We could ask authors what they want? Maybe discuss on the
    mailing list

    ed: do we want to wait for the test cases? or resolve on one of
    the options now?

    Tav: I'd say wait

Publication schedule for SVG2

    ed: I'm not sure if we decided when the next publication would
    happen
    ... but it would be good to have a date to work against
    ... so looking at the table of the current plan, we should have
    LC working draft in January

    krit: it's a tough schedule

    ed: that's what I'm thinking, I don't think we can take what we
    have now and go to LC

    krit: we should have a F2F before LC
    ... so that would be February
    ... I would like to have a second WD before we go to LC

    <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I have some travel in Februaary

    ed: so what dates would be realistic for a second working
    draft?

    krit: after our F2F seems to be reasonable
    ... I think there's more to discuss, i.e. security concerns
    from Mozilla
    ... can we resolve that we won't publish in January? do we need
    to resolve on that?

    ed: I think it would be good to have a resolution to point to

    rich: was someone doing tab-index? what's the status of that?

    krit: the question is how much we need to specify in SVG? maybe
    we can rely on the definition in HTML5

    <ed> ACTION-3341?

    <trackbot> ACTION-3341 -- Doug Schepers to is going to look
    into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation --
    due 2012-08-30 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3341

      [19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/3341

    rich: I'm certainly going to use what we wrote up for ARIA in
    HTML5 because the wording was good

    resolution: goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February -
    after F2F

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
    February, after the F2F [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
    with the details of what happened.

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
    February, after the F2F [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
    with the details of what happened.

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
    February, after the F2F [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
    with the details of what happened.

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 publication schedule in
    wiki to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is
    February, after the F2F [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Could not create new action (unparseable data in
    server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in
    position 7: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq
    with the details of what happened.

    <scribe> ACTION:ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action08]

    ed: so that brings last call dates forward a bit, not sure by
    how much
    ... we'll have to adjust the dates to be later

    rich: do we know when we are going to go to REC?

    krit: end of next year (2013) for CR stage

    rich: the reason I'm asking, is I'm working with ePub people,
    and they will want to know when the accessibility stuff will
    show up

    <ed>
    [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co
    mmitments

      [25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

    ed: so looking at the commitments page, there are plenty of
    things that haven't been put in the spec
    ... all the ones that don't have commitment from anyone, are up
    for grabs if anyone is interested

    <krit> [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/

      [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/

Filter Effects

    <krit> [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/filter-effects/

    krit: filter effects WPD has been published
    ... can I remove relaxNG from the spec?
    ... do we need it ?
    ... if it's useful, who will write it ?

    ed: we had a starting point from a previous draft of SVG 2
    ... so there are some files that may be ready
    ... I'm not really sure what state they are in

    krit: how does relaxNG work with HTML5 and validating there?
    ... I would rather remove it, it's adding complexity that is
    not needed
    ... currently, we just have a note in the spec that we want to
    provide it

    ed: I would be fine removing it
    ... if we don't have anyone who wants to do the work, we can
    remove it and if someone wants to do it later they can

    krit: sounds good

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: dirk to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 publication schedule in wiki
    to note that the goal for next SVG 2 working draft is February,
    after the F2F [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Krit to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: krit to craft some test cases to compare the
    implementations of gradients in CSS/Canvas/SVG [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [36]scribe.perl version
     1.137 ([37]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/10/25 22:06:20 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
Check for newer version at [38]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
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      [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/of a/of the/
Succeeded: s/sometimes it's nice to have the fill/in general I find it n
ice if the paint servers fully fill the given shape/
Succeeded: s/some .../some testcases/
Succeeded: s/WG/WD/
Succeeded: s/for/from/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: IPcaller P3 Tav aaaa aabb cyril ed https joined krit n
ikos rich richardschwerdtfeger scribenick svg trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
         <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
         <dbooth> Present+ amy

Regrets: cyril
Agenda: [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec
/0016.html

      [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0016.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 25 Oct 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [40]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: dirk ed erik krit

      [40] http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html


    End of [41]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


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