# Minutes, August 23 2012 telcon

From: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:31:09 -0700
To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Here are the meeting minutes of the August 23 2012 telcon:
http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html

[1]W3C

[1] http://www.w3.org/

- DRAFT -

SVG Working Group Teleconference

23 Aug 2012

[2]Agenda

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-irc

Attendees

Present
Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier, Tav, ed,
nikos, birtles

Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR

Scribe
cabanier

Contents

* [4]Topics
1. [5]SVG2 status
2. [6]Lucerne F2F reminder
3. [7]SVG Accessibility Gap Analysis
4. [8]CSS4 <image> as value for <paint>
5. [9]<color-profile> element
* [10]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 23 August 2012

<ed> Agenda:
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSe
p/0167.html

[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

<scribe> scribenick: cabanier

SVG2 status

heycam: we were planning on publishing last tuesday but there
were some issue
... we tried again on thursday but we had some issues with
Chris' color changes. I waiting to hear back from him and we'll
probably publish on tuesday
... because we have inline svg and we have mathml
... we needed to change the format of the doc to HTML5 which
took a bit of time

cabanier: so we're using mathml?

heycam: I converted a couple of formulas of the painting
formulas and some of of the path stuff
... I'm using mathjax
... to provide fallback.
... and around 6 months ago it was decided that mathml was OK
... are you having trouble?

tav: I tried it today and it took me around 20 min

heycam: let me know if you have issues and I'll help you

Lucerne F2F reminder

<ed>
[12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012

[12] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012

<ed>
[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012
/Agenda_proposals

[13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012/Agenda_proposals

ed: there's a page for attending and for proposals

heycam: I think only cyril hasn't replied

SVG Accessibility Gap Analysis

<ed>
[14]http://www.w3.org/mid/OF38278C69.E13ACB0C-ON86257A5E.006A2B
07-86257A5E.006B7B8B@us.ibm.com

[14] http://www.w3.org/mid/OF38278C69.E13ACB0C-ON86257A5E.006A2B07-86257A5E.006B7B8B@us.ibm.com

<richardschwerdtfe> Rich

heycam: can I reformat it as text and send it to the list

rich: sure

doug: that will make it easier to search the archives

<heycam>
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Aug/0105.ht
ml

[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Aug/0105.html

rich: the first part is just about the technology of what
happens in the browser
... looking at SVG, we have the gap analysis

<shepazu> (it might be useful to also look at this
[16]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-aapi-20110414/ )

[16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-aapi-20110414/

rich: the reason for the role attribute is to give the system
information

(rich: going over the reason we need accessibility in SVG)

rich: we have no keyboard navigation
... the structure of SVG doesn't map to platform accessibility
... the grouping element can be repurposed for that reason
... you can assign semantics to it
... the first svg document alludes that we can do this with the
<g> element
... svg rendering don't follow system settings such as high
contrast
... does high contrast tie in with the developers?

<heycam> I wonder whether the CSS system colour keywords in
conjunction with default colours is sufficient for high
constrast support.

rich: panning and zooming inside of a SVG rendering is
important too
... do we do something with animations
... we heard that they are being removed?

heycam: no. Brian is working on something new

rich: we want to look into how to make these accessibility
... we should introduce 'role' on elements
... the role attribute on safari and webkit on svg is mapped to
the accessibility API
... we could develop more states to ARIA and apply them to SVG
... MS and ??? would like tabindex applied to SVG so you can
... do we want to provide the ability to zoom into content that
is not visible

doug: what is the behavior of fragment id with zooming and
panning?
... the user might not want to zoom in on the bounding box.
... we've talked about the idea of adding tab index to SVG but
SVG already has one that is better

<ed> an example of tabbing between nodes in an svg, with
panning:
[17]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/interact-focus
-203-t.svg

[17] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/interact-focus-203-t.svg

<ed> works in opera

rich: so you want both models?

doug: yeah

<ed> (testcase is from the SVG 1.2T testsuite)

rich: that sounds fine. I have to look into again
... but there doesn't seem opposition to adding tab index

heycam: yes, we should have keyboard navigation. Even outside
the accessibility use case

ed: do we just want tab behavior or 4/8 way navigation too?
... I'd prefer that whatever we had in tiny keeps working

heycam: we should look into the model

ed: yes, it should be possible to make it work. It makes sense
to have it in SVG if it works in HTML

heycam: weren't they going to be added to CSS?

doug: tantek decided not to add the navigation keyword to CSS
UI 3 but I don't know why
... tab index is not sufficient for a lot of scenarios. We
would have to define how those work together
... for arrow key navigation, the keyword are: up/right/etc
... those are directional navigation elements

<heycam>
[18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co
mmitments -- see items 97, 98, 99 -- that covers the navigation
properties and HTML's tabindex

[18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

doug: you need an algorihtmic way to find out what 'up' means

heycam: item 99 is similar to tabindex, 97 covers nav

rich: so it's resolved to do this feature?

heycam: yes

rich: who is going to do the spec work?

heycam: nobody has signed up for it

<shepazu>
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#specifyingnavi
gation

doug: here's what we have so far
... the only conflict is nav-next and nav-prev
... I will take a look if there's a conflict with tab index.
It's an interest of mine

<scribe> ACTION: shepazu is going to look into conflicts
between the model of tab index and navigation [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3341 - Is going to look into
conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [on
Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-30].

doug: I see they're attributes but not properties. We need to
talk to the CSS people about that

rich: I''m willing to take an action for the aria and the role
attribute

heycam: we already have role in tiny

<ed>
[21]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#RoleAttribute

[21] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#RoleAttribute

tav: please provide examples because I tried to do it in the
past and there's no documentation out there

doug: I have some!

tav: those are the only ones...

doug: I dropped in a document. This contains a table that has
all the ally api's
... I found it really useful

rich: yes, everyone needs to understand what we're doing

resolution: define Role and ARIA states and property attributes
in SVG

doug: we want to do the same as HTML did it

rich: we feel that the industry hasn't done enough for
accessibility
... with flash going away, we want to look into SVG

heycam: what did flash do?

rich: it doesn't deal with table structure. You can have a
group or a panel. The evens are hardcoded to the windows
platform

<shepazu> example of SVG table with ARIA
[22]http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/table.svg

[22] http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/table.svg

rich: it has no knowledge about rich text.
... they don't have structure content
... it was not that great and Adobe is not investigating it any
more
... limited windows support. They wanted to add richer
accessibility support but it's not happening

<Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to discuss system colors

doug: what did you mean with system colors?

rich: desktop applications can respond to going to high
contrast mode

<shepazu> CSS 3 system colors deprecated
[23]http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#css-system

[23] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#css-system

rich: we could add an API for that so the application is
notified

doug: I think there's an opportunity for doing this in CSS
... like with a media query
... not just for ally, but various lighting conditions
... or for people that are color blind
... using media queries we can have the document be styled
differently

<birtles> CSS luminance media queries
[24]http://fremycompany.com/BG/2012/Ambient-light-sensors-and-C
SS-Media-Queries-971/ (doesn't support the red-green red-blue
thing though)

[24] http://fremycompany.com/BG/2012/Ambient-light-sensors-and-CSS-Media-Queries-971/

doug: then designers can provide an alternate representation

tav: do you think designers will do this?

doug: I think there will be aftermarket people will do this
redesigns
... designers don't want to do the high contrast page because
it doesn't look good

ed: I like Brian's doc

rich: we should go to the CSS WG for the media queries?

all: yes

<scribe> ACTION: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for
role and aria states and properties integration [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3342 - Write up a proposal for role
and aria states and properties integration [on Richard
Schwerdtfeger - due 2012-08-30].

rich: panning and zooming is something that Kelvin wants
... it would be nice to pan and zoom portions
... of an SVG document

kelvin: you could describe a rectangle to do pan and zoom
... it's not an SVG thing. I'm not sure how the WG can

ed: it's supported in some other viewers. Not sure if it's well
documented in the respective UA's docs how it works

rich: can we put this in the spec?

heycam: it's still in the spec but it hasn't gotten widespread
implementation

doug: in the past people wanted to limit the scope that we can
influence the UI

<ed> s/it's supported in some other viewers/ctrl+dragging
inside an svg for panning, alt+click / shift+alt+click for
zooming in and out is supported in some other viewers/

doug: Opera has the zoom slider
... we can try to say that they need to implement some sort of
zoom and pan

kelvin: with accessibility we can say that we need it which
might force them to add it

rich: should we strengthen the language?

doug: Kelvin, would you want to write up what we need from pan
and zoom? so we can feedback from browser vendors

kelvin: yes, I will reread the spec and write something up

<scribe> ACTION: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan
for accessibility [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3343 - Write requirement for zoom and
pan for accessibility [on Kelvin Lawrence - due 2012-08-30].

CSS4 <image> as value for <paint>

<ed>
[27]http://www.w3.org/mid/FBBDBDBC-F3CD-404E-AFC1-0369A75DAA89@

ed: why was this for css4 images and not 3?

cabanier: isn't 3 already in LC? Tab is working on version 4

heycam: so, the element() is in CSS4

cabanier: maybe put it on the agenda again next week

<ed> ed: css3-images is in CR

cabanier: wasn't there also a decision to push off element()
... maybe it was the one that referred to other html chunk

ed: we
... we'll put it on the agenda for next week

<color-profile> element

ed: chris isn't here

heycam: we already decided to remove the font element
... there is no advantage to be able to specify as an element
as well as a CSS @ rule

cabanier: that sounds reasonable

heycam: and it wasn't widely implemented

ed: is this tagging the image with a profile?

<ed>
[28]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/color.html#ColorProfileElement

[28] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/color.html#ColorProfileElement

cabanier: it's there so you can give it a link to an ICC
profile and give it a name

heycam: and then you can reference the name of the color
profile in the paint
... it makes sense just to have the @ rule

ed: I can't think of a reason to have it

heycam: it's just as easy to get to an @ rule through the DOM

resolution: remove the <color-profile> element from the spec

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from
the spec [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3344 - Remove <color-profile> element
from the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-08-30].

ed: any other topics?

heycam: there are some things on the mailing list but we can do
that later

nikos: weren't there things that we want Erik's input on?

heycam: one of the items was clipping on filters:
before/after/both

nikos: we didn't decide

ed: we discussed it a lot. the current version of the spec
picks one of the ways and we discussed doing auto for drop

heycam: we have margins too.

ed: we took them out but re-added them for shaders
... I have to look into it again

heycam: dirk should be here to drive the discussion

<heycam>
[30]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

[30] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

heycam: this is the discussion

<ed> ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]

[31] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3345 - Respond to the filter issues
raised in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 on
Erik Dahlström - due 2012-08-30].

[33] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

<heycam>
[34]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html#item04

[34] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html#item04

ed: I will read these offline and respond

<ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07
[recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the
spec [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for
accessibility [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role
and aria states and properties integration [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between
the model of tab index and navigation [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

[35] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________

Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version
1.136 ([42]CVS log)
$Date: 2012/08/23 22:27:10$
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[41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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[43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

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Found ScribeNick: cabanier
Inferring Scribes: cabanier
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier, Tav, ed,
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Present: Doug_Schepers heycam Kelvin Rich cabanier Tav ed nikos birtles
Agenda: [44]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep
/0167.html

[44] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 23 Aug 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [45]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ed going heycam is kelvin richardschwerdtfe sh
epazu

[45] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html

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