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Minutes, 23/02/2012 SVG WG Telcon

From: Cyril Concolato <Cyril.Concolato@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:38:58 +0000
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <54EF1DA3171CEE48AD59D7FF0DE043C35A59D5E8@exm01-wvp.cisra.canon.com.au>
Hi all,

Here are the minutes of the February 23rd, 2012 SVG WG telcon:
http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html
Please start a new email thread if you want to discuss a particular item.

Minutes text here:
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
23 Feb 2012

Agenda<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html>

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-irc>

Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
cyril
Contents

  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   CSS 3 UI Review<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#item01>
     *   Background and border<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#item02>
     *   transforms<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#item03>
     *   back to Background and border<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#item04>
     *   FX Spec Testing<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#item05>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 23 February 2012

<scribe> scribe: cyril

<scribe> scribenick: cyril

CSS 3 UI Review

<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0114.html

CL: Chris has written up some review
... I'll skip to the bits that might be difficult
... we don't currently allow replacement text i.e. to do numbering
... because our text does not reflow

but the icon property might be used

CM: that replaces with an image

CL: yes

CM: I could see supporting before and after for numbering in SVG
... where you might not need reflowing
... if have a text with a width
... but replacing a text with an image might be tricky
... because we don't allow image in text

CL: it does not assume a coordinate system

CM: you could set this icon property on a tspan in a middle of text

CL: yes

CM: my initial feeling is to make icon not apply to our text unless we go into having image in text

CL: especially because it's at risk
... if we don't speak up and say we love it, it might disappear
... next is outline-property
... it is like a border but without width
... in this draft it adds more control on how it looks like
... and it says it doesn't have to be rectangular
... maybe rounded corner
... for SVG that means is a rectangle, not really useful, it is essentially like stroking the bounding box

ED: how does it work with CSS transforms

CL: good question

DS: I think that outline is really useful because people would want to use it as a highlight mechanism
... we should define our highlight in terms of outline

CM: when we have focused element?

DS: yes
... but I think you're probably right in your comment

CL: next: resizing and overflow
... resize is done only if the object is too big and you've set overflow correctly
... it is more useful in the HTML/SVG integration than for SVG by itself
... it only applies to elements that are too big to fit
... you wouldn't be able to resize a path

<ChrisL> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 77 bytes) in /afs/w3.org/pub/WWW/2002/09/wbs/user.phi on line 341

CL: next: overflow: ellipsis
... this is where you've got text that it is too big to fit and replace the end of the text with ...
... but the instruction is entirely defined in the box model and difficult for SVG

ed: we have a resolution to add this to SVG 2

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_text-overflow_to_SVG_2

ed: we've implemented that for SVG already

<ChrisL> "when inline content overflows its block container element "

<ed> text content block elements

CL: we should say that we want wording when it applies to SVG
... like text outside of the viewport

<shepazu> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2440

CL: this might be a bit funny

<ed> here's the proposal for how to make it work in svg: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/Text-overflow

CL: same thing for the path, the characters outside don't get rendered
... but you don't know your'e missing characters

DS: can you provide example on how it works for path in SVG ?

ED: yes

<ed> http://dahlström.net/svg/css/text-overflow-ellipsis.svg

CM: so you use the width attribute
... but it's probably not the right one, the length would be better
... we might be defining our text layout treated as if we were using hte CSS box model
... but today we don't use it

CL: cursor property
... they define a superset of what we have
... the change is for links, in our spec, we have a lnk to a cursor element (invented in SVG)
... because we did not want to change the syntax of CSS
... the way they define the x and y property is better
... i propose that we deprecate the cursor element because the x/y is better handled

DS: would you still be able to do custom cursor elements

CL: yes
... that is why the x/y is for
... the cursor element is just another level of indirection just to indicate the hotspot in your cursor resource
... ASV 6 implemented that I think

CM: we just need to handle the new x,y that's it

CL: yes
... two related things: tab order and direction navigation
... do we care about that, and say we want to have 8 way-navigation (SVG Tiny 1.2) or we are fine with 4 way

DS: i think it makes sense to have 8-way
... there are some devices with 8-way controllers
... in DOM 3 the key model assumes an 8-way controller

CL: I can point to DOM and SVG

CM: erik do you implement the 8-way ?

ED: I think we do,

CL: good to know because the feature is at risk because of lack of implementations
... next: Input method editor

<ed> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.10/svg/attributes/ lists all the nav attributes from Tiny 1.2 as supported

CL: it's more aimed at Japanese
... you can disable to IME

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#key-values-list

CL: it's very weird

DS: why CSS does anything to do with IME?

CM: the point is that IE had this property to force the IME not to come up

CL: last, references
... it references both SVG 1.0 and SVG 1.1
... as informative documents
... some other references are weird
... that concludes my review

DS: is it worth mentionning htat hte pointer-events property has been dropped from CSS UI

CL: yes, thank you

DS: I had an action to do the CSS version of pointer events
... but Tantek said no I'll do it, but then dropped it
... because there is not a good testing model for the platform
... he moved that on for CSS UI 4
... but I think it oculd be a standalone spec including hit testing and pointer events
... it could be a separate module of CSS
... if it was already in scope for CSS UI but was dropped
... there's been a lot of demand for it

DS2: I don't care if it is a module or CSS 4

<shepazu> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/pointer-events

DS: it works in Chrome, Firefox and Safari

<ChrisL> in html

<heycam> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20onmouseover%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27yellow%27%22%20onmouseout%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27white%27%22%20style%3D%22pointer-events%3Anone%22%3Ehover%20over%20me%3C%2Fp%3E<http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cp%20onmouseover%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27yellow%27%22%20onmouseout%3D%22this.style.backgroundColor%3D%27white%27%22%20style%3D%22pointer-events%3Anone%22%3Ehover%20over%20me%3C%2Fp%3E>

CL: I'll add that comment to the end of the review

DS: I don't mind if it is moved to UI 4 if there is a plan to have CSS UI 4 move quickly

CL: I don't think it'll go fast

DS: then that suboptimal given that it is already implemented

RC: is there any security issue with that?

DS: it's implemented so I don't think there are unadressed security issues

Background and border

CM: who was assigned the action to review it?

CL: Erik ?

CM: when is the CSS spec due ?

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html

ED: the review were due yesterday

CM: I remember some email about object-fit

ED: there was an issue on how you could reference SVG files from the element() syntax

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1124.html

transforms

DS: Chris has raised the issue in CSS
... the CSS WG agreed to publish

back to Background and border

<ed> response from tab: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1137.html

CM: is there anything useful discussing about the spec or not

ED: you can't reference a whole SVG file

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#element-reference

<ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#paint-sources

CM: if you reference a gradient or pattenr, what does it mean in terms of coordinate space on the element you're using

ED: you'd have to wrap an SVG element in a pattern

DiS: wouldn't it be better to say user unit?

CL: I prefer user coordinates instead of user units

<ed> there was a response from boris Zbarsky too, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1131.html

CM: if you're using an SVG as a background image, you can use a URL to point to the SVG

ED: the use case I think is that some SVG might not be rendered first
... so SVG elements with display:none can't get reference

CM: what about things inside a <defs>

ED: I think you can still reference them if they are paint sources

DiS: what is the painting area? Is that defined ?

CM: I don't know if this is a CSS term, I assume its the background area

<heycam> (at least for background-image)

DiS: for userSpaceOnUse, it is not defined how width and height are used

ED: I think we should have a look at it
... Tab said he already made some minor changes to the spec
... feel free to read the spec and make more comments
... I will mail the questions we raised tomorrow

DiS: we should be careful if we add new paint servers

CM: it says in SVG 1.1 and talks about host language, so we should be safe

TB: there is also hatch fill and video

FX Spec Testing

TB: basically, how are we going to test things in SVG 2 but more urgently the upcoming transform spec
... there are people writing tests for HTML
... what is the format going to be

DiS: is it possible to port the CSS system to SVG ?

TB: I don't know how well it's portable
... for instance in Inkscape you don't have HTML and JS
... looking at CSS, most of it relies on JS capturing and testing

DiS: for WebKit, most tests for Transforms are JS
... but we could have ref tests

TB: yes

CM: I thought that the framework was to support ref tests

DS: I think you're right
... we would be out of touch if we did not go in the framework
... but for UA that don't support JS or CSS we should do something
... I'll try to have someone from the testing activity in the SVG call
... we definitely one single unified framework at W3C and have it work for SVG
... I'll see if we can have someone for next week

CM: if you're wondering what to do for immediately
... I suggest you write plain SVG ref tests
... and once we have some framework running, we can convert them automatically
... do you have a command line tool that render it to a PNG

TB: yes

<Tav> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CSS/index.html

DiS: another thing is the size of the tests

TB: I started to write some tests in the same format as we did before

DS: Philippe Le Hegaret could call

<shepazu> http://w3c-test.org/

TB: How can we do tests for renderers that don't have access to JS

PLH: there is no way to do that automatically
... SVG will write many ref tests
... and in most of hte cases it would work
... the framework that we have has the ability to have ref tests
... but they have to be run manually if you want to test Inkscape

CL: the framework is a bit different from what we have
... all pages are forms so that you can directly say if it passes or fails
... the reporting is automatic

CM: does that do automation of ref tests

PLH: no, it will display the test next to each other and there will be button for people to say pass/fail

<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/

PLH: the main framework is here
... PHP scripts maintained by Robin Berjon
... there is a Bugzilla
... Peter Linss contributes to
... it will allow you to run various kinds of tests
... for ref tests, I'm looking at some

<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/woff-ua/blocks-extraneous-data-001/

PLH: this one is a ref test for WOFF
... the framework is independent of the tests format, it is only here to gather results

<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/nav-timing-default/test_navigate_within_document.html/

DiS: how do you test animations and transitions

PLH: we have no way to test that

DS: you could have ref tests script based
... there is a way to test animations, if you allow scripts

PLH: for technologies that we can't automate, the fallback is user interaction
... we support well JS tests and we ask everyone to use the same harness
... but we also say write ref tests and then manual
... if someone comes up with a test method that works in a browser, we should be able to integrate it

DS: do you have a document describing the architecture of the framework

<plh> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/testrunner.svg

PLH: no, we have not spend much time on documentation so far
... Sheperd is the name of the CSS Framework, this is running a modified version of that framework
... if we are going to help editors, this would need to have a completely different approach

CC: I think the goal is that tests be compatible for both automated tests and editor tests

PLH: one of the advantage of the harness is that you can overload the functions

CM: for the ref tests, there is no restriciton on the format of the tests

PLH: no, as long as we can display the document we are good

CM: and we need to write a manifest file to index our tests

CL: it's fairly easy
... we need to work out what needs to be done to have reference to spec in the tests

PLH: the framework does not put any requirements on metadata
... for instance the CSS WG is very rigid on the metadata, while the HTML WG does not have any constraint
... you can put metadata in the manifest file ...

CL: there is a script that can be added to the spec to auto-annotate the spec with links to go directly to the tests

PLH: you can also deploy PHP files if you need
... for instance for XHR, there is some behavior of the server
... that is required
... that is why we are running it on another server, to avoid security issues
... I
... am guessing that you will have more requirements
... we could have Robin or Peter join in

DS: Robin knows SVG will and can understand what we will need

CM: yes that is fine
... we should have somebody take charge during the week of thinking of our requirements

PLH: one of the issues we have know is testing WebSockets but I don't think we will have these problems

CM: any volunteer

DS: Tav ?

TB: I'm a little worried that I don't know about the SMIL testing ...

CM: why don't we start a wiki page

TB: yes, I'll do that

<plh> --> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TestInfra/goals Testing/Requirements

<scribe> ACTION: Tav to start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3240 - Start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-03-01].

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Tav to start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2012/02/23 21:33:40 $
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html

Found Date: 23 Feb 2012

Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html

People with action items: tav


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