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Minutes, 14 June 2012 SVG WG telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:05:27 +0200
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.wfxp3dtkgeuyw5@gnorps>
Minutes:

     http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html

and as text:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

14 Jun 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0096.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Cyril, birtles, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, nikos,
           +1.415.832.aabb, krit, +1.612.789.aacc, Tav, ed, ChrisL

    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           ed

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Status of Shepherd integration / Test The Web
             Forward
          2. [6]strokebbox
      * [7]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 14 June 2012

    <krit> nikos: no party?

    <nikos> heh. It's a pretty exclusive party

    <birtles> ed, are you still having trouble joining?

    <scribe> scribeNick: ed

Status of Shepherd integration / Test The Web Forward

    [8]http://www.w3.org/mid/4FD260CC.5050404@w3.org

       [8] http://www.w3.org/mid/4FD260CC.5050404@w3.org

    DS: heycam wanted to work on that, not sure if there's any
    progress on it
    ... the focus for svg is for css transforms, we can do it with
    the css testsuite at the moment
    ... and then transfer the tests later

    ED: is there any info on how to contribute on the TTWF site?

    DS: there will be a presentation on how to do that

    ED: just making sure the materials will be available online as
    the event takes place, to enable people participating even
    though they're not physically there

    DS: I will publish them right after doug's presention

    TB: peter linss is looking at integrating some of the changes I
    made for converting html/css test to svg
    ... it's perhaps not generic enough, my code was for the
    submitted adobe tests

    ED: so there was a question about whether a pass on a test
    (regardless of the format) should be a pass for that feature or
    not

    TB: i think you have to have separate results, e.g for
    transforms in svg and for transforms in html/css
    ... I don't think any of the browsers support the new
    transforms things for svg

    ED: anything else needed from us in time for the event?

    TB: would be good to have a couple of approved tests in our
    repo

    DS: don't think that's necessary
    ... we can use the same process as the csswg uses for
    review/approval
    ... can=need

    TB: we used to require tests to have a reviewer, are we giving
    up on that?

    DS: no, css requires that too
    ... you have a creator, a reviewer, and a third person to
    approve it
    ... we could say reviewer and approver could be the same person
    if we want

    TB: how does the test become approved?

    DS: the shepherd tool moves the approved tests to another
    directory

    TB: right now we have nothing in our approved directory
    ... shouldn't we have a few in there?

    DS: I think so yes
    ... only a few people have committed tests so far
    ... I'll look at reviewing and approving some of the tests

    TB: i'll move some of my tests to the submitted folder

    DS: right, only those will be picked up by shepherd

    <scribe> ACTION: Dirk to review (and approve) Tav's submitted
    svg2-tests [recorded in
    [9]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3308 - Review (and approve) Tav's
    submitted svg2-tests [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-06-21].

    ED:
    [10]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/raw-file/tip/contributors
    /tavmjong/submitted/template_001.svg is this the template to
    use?

      [10]  
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/raw-file/tip/contributors/tavmjong/submitted/template_001.svg

    TB: yes

    <ChrisL>
    [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#
    How_to_Create_Tests

      [11]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#How_to_Create_Tests

    DS: all tests must be BSD-licensed, right?

    CL: yes

    <ChrisL>
    [12]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/03-bsd-license.html

      [12] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/03-bsd-license.html

    TB: how does it work with linking to spec sections, since the
    spec is still pretty much in flux?

    <ChrisL> template should be the same as
    [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Require
    ments#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss

      [13]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss

    DS: you should link to the toplevel section

    CL: so the file ED linked to isn't the latest template, should
    be revised

    TB: I thought we agreed to allow link elements

    DS: I think we have a resolution for that already

    CL: for link peter said it was easier for him to import if it
    was in the html namespace
    ... this is all documented in the wikipage I linked to
    ... this is based on discussions with peter last week

    DS: so the wikipage represents what we want, ok

    <scribe> ACTION: tav to update the svg2 test template
    [14]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/file/tip/contributors/tav
    mjong/submitted/template_001.svg to be in sync with the agreed
    format in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Require
    ments#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss [recorded
    in [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html#action02]

      [14]  
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/file/tip/contributors/tavmjong/submitted/template_001.svg
      [15]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3309 - Update the svg2 test template
    [17]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/file/tip/contributors/tav
    mjong/submitted/template_001.svg to be in sync with the agreed
    format in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Require
    ments#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss [on
    Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-06-21].

      [17]  
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/file/tip/contributors/tavmjong/submitted/template_001.svg
      [18]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss

    BB: did we come to a conclusion on the format for the reference
    images?

    CL: we did discuss that
    ... if possible we agreed that if it's easy to do solid green
    for pass for example then that's preferred, but there are cases
    where that can give false positives and cases where it's very
    difficult, like filters

    BB: right... another suggestion is to use one standard text
    string for tests with text

    TB: I have objections to having just green rects

    BB: in gecko we use tens of thousands of tests, it's easy to
    quickly see pass if the pass images are always green

    DS: if you see green it's passed, if you see red it's failed,
    basic principle

    <Tav>
    [19]http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/svg2-tests/contributors/tavmjon
    g/incoming/

      [19]  
http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/svg2-tests/contributors/tavmjong/incoming/

    TB: here are the transforms tests i wrote a while ago
    ... red indicates failure
    ... and you can tell what's being tested

    BB: how important is it to know what's being tested?

    TB: in inkscape it was useful, to show someone

    <krit>
    [20]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#transform-function
    s

      [20] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#transform-functions

    BB: if inkscape had a testsuite with 10k tests, then it's still
    not easy

    DS: every test is specified to test one specific thing, it's
    testing a part of the spec

    <krit>
    [21]http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/sing
    le/svg-matrix-008/format/html5/

      [21]  
http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/single/svg-matrix-008/format/html5/

    DS: for that test it's just the matrix value
    ... it has a red rect behind that will show if there's
    something wrong

    TB: but you can't tell what it's testing just by looking at it

    DS: the filename tells you, and the test metadata
    ... every test should describe what it's testing inside the
    metadata
    ... and the pass criteria

    BB: one difference is that you should be able to look at a test
    and see what it's testing, but that's not so important in an
    automated system

    <krit>
    [22]http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/sing
    le/svg-matrix-008/format/html5/

      [22]  
http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/single/svg-matrix-008/format/html5/

    DS: right, because then the automated engine doesn't care what
    it's testing, just compares the results
    ... it's up to the author to provide the information
    ... in the metadata, but it should be there
    ... I think it's quite clear what it's testing

    TB: what do people think?

    CL: valuable to run automated tests, but when you get the list
    of failed tests it's useful if a human can quickly tell whats
    wrong
    ... and then it's useful to know what those tests are testing
    exactly
    ... this means we should have welldocumented testcases

    DS: that's why we do review on them

    TB: maybe we should have them separate? it's nice to have to
    some visual tests (like in SVG 1.1)

    DS: we have reftests that can do that, two images have to look
    the same, otherwise it's a fail
    ... I agree that visual tests are good, and that if you see red
    it's failed

    <krit>
    [23]http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/sing
    le/svg-scale-001/format/html5/

      [23]  
http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/single/svg-scale-001/format/html5/

    DS: here is a test, two rects...

    <krit>
    [24]http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/sing
    le/svg-skewx-020/format/html5/

      [24]  
http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/CSS3-TRANSFORMS_DEV/single/svg-skewx-020/format/html5/

    DS: this next test fails in all browsers
    ... anyway, we can also discuss further on the mailinglist

    <ChrisL> the 'show reference' link is broken btw

    DS: and it means others can follow the discussion

    CL: i'd like to say another thing about the template
    ... the template doesn't use a particular font
    ... which means every implentation may use a different font
    ... suggest we standardize on a particular WOFF font

    DS: but we don't need that with reftests, because it ensures
    the font is the same on both reference and testcase
    ... AHEM is often used in css tests

    CL: ahem is not always useful though

    DS: I think it's wrong to require a particular font

    CL: why is consistency bad?

    DS: but it doesn't matter, because we have reftest

    CL: what is the problem? we've had unreadable text, and people
    assuming a particular default font
    ... if you're testing svg it's not going to reflow text for
    example

    DS: if you add more dependencies then that's an additional
    thing that can fail

    CL: all browsers support this, explain why the pass criteria
    would make it fail?

    DS: but you add unnecessary complexity

    CL: so should we also take out the metadata?

    DS: that's different

    ED: I think it's quite nice to have consistent fonts used
    throughout the testsuite
    ... looking back at the SVG testsuite, yes svgfonts/webfonts is
    additional complexity, but it's also nice to get consistent
    rendering across platforms

    DS: webfonts are a requirement or just something we support in
    svg?

    TB: inkscape doesn't support webfonts

    DS: the problem is that if webfonts isn't a requirement for svg

    CL: we have resolved that webfonts, and woff, are a requirement
    for svg

    ED: so, can we agree on having a consistent font used when
    possible?

    DS: don't want to require webfonts for the tests

    TB: dirks tests are simple, don't require labeling, but svg1.1
    tests are more visual
    ... with labels and so on

    nikos: it's a risk if the layout obscures the text
    ... you don't necessaryly know the output you're going to get

    CL: right, you might get unexpected results

    TB: but the risk is pretty small, but I prefer the svg11 tests
    though
    ... all it would take is to put in a style section in the
    template to use a webfont as the default font

    <ChrisL> yes it would just take one @font-face rule plus a font
    family and size on the main group

    TB: inkscape would ignore it

    (discussion on inkscape and testing with references)

    <ChrisL> so you would no longer need to make speccial inkscape
    test versions with all text elements removed

    DS: i'm not strongly opposed to adding WOFF fonts, I just think
    that we should reduce the tests as much as possible

    CL: that's why I pushed hard for pass criteria, because it
    doesn't matter if the WOFF is supported or not if the only
    thing that needs to be done is to render a rect for example
    ... unless the pass criteria says you have to look exactly like
    a given font

    DS: for automated tests it's still additional complexity,
    requirements for passing the test

    CL: but if we have flags, then we should just not add the flag
    "need webfont" if it's not necessary

    DS: how do you style the elements?

    CL: that's why it should be in the template

    DS: but we should only have that if it's needed for passing the
    test
    ... don't think we can agree on having this right now

    CL: I don't accept your arguments that unflagged tests would
    fail

    TB: don't care so much either way

    nikos: no strong opinion from me, but it should be in the
    template i think so that it's no risk to be missed

    ED: i'd be fine with having two templates, one for tests that
    use text in the visual output, and one that doesn't (where the
    webfont isn't needed)

    CL: that would be ok with me too
    ... would that be fine with you DS?

    DS: yes

    TB: ok, so two templates, one for automated tests (without the
    webfont), one for visual tests (that have the webfont)
    ... I'll make those templates, what font do we want to use?

    CL: freesans would be good

    DS: do we also want to have other fonts, serif, bold etc?

    CL: probably, but not in the template maybe, but it's good to
    have a library of fonts that can be used

    <ChrisL> <!-- your test suould turn this rect green--><rect x=
    y= width= height= />

strokebbox

    DS: I'd like to add getting the stroked bbox to the spec, is
    that fine?

    CL: yes, we agreed to do that, should be fine

    DS: other kinds of bboxes too, like markers, filters etc?

    CL: we tried to limit it to stroke I think
    ... anything that affects strokes should say how it affects the
    strokebbox

    DS: should markers be included?

    CL: possibly

    DS: ok, i'll try to do this next week (don't need an action)

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Dirk to review (and approve) Tav's submitted
    svg2-tests [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: tav to update the svg2 test template
    https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2-tests/file/tip/contributors/tavmjon
    g/submitted/template_001.svg to be in sync with the agreed
    format in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Require
    ments#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss [recorded
    in [27]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html#action02]

      [26]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements#Revised_structure_after_comment_by_Peter_Linss

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version
     1.136 ( [29]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/06/14 22:33:00 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Succeeded: s/we require/we support/
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Found ScribeNick: ed
Inferring Scribes: ed
Default Present: Cyril, birtles, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, nikos, +1.415.832.aa
bb, krit, +1.612.789.aacc, Tav, ed, ChrisL
Present: Cyril birtles +61.2.980.5.aaaa nikos +1.415.832.aabb krit +1.6
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Agenda:
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0096.h
tml

      [31]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0096.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 14 Jun 2012
Guessing minutes URL:
[32]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: dirk tav

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/14-svg-minutes.html


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      [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Friday, 15 June 2012 08:06:07 GMT

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