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minutes, 13 October 2011 SVG WG telcon

From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:34:54 +1100
Message-ID: <4E97597E.2060803@mcc.id.au>
To: 'www-svg' <www-svg@w3.org>
Hello, please find the minutes from today's SVG WG telcon at

   http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html

and below as plain text.


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

13 Oct 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0019.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           +1.408.543.aaaa, ed, +33.9.53.77.aabb, tbah, heycam, ChrisL,
           shepazu

    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           Cameron

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]SVG2 planning
          2. [6]SVG Open 2011 F2F
          3. [7]requirements
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 13 October 2011

    <scribe> Scribe: Cameron

    <scribe> ScribeNick: heycam

SVG2 planning

    <ChrisL>
    [9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page

       [9] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page

    ED: we originally thought we'd be done with the requirements and use
    cases draft
    ... tomorrow
    ... that seems unlikely

    CL: I think we could agree to finalise it by the end of the F2F
    though
    ... we could get rid of some of the proposals, merge some
    ... also find out which one whether there's any authoring support,
    any authoring problems, any implementation interest

    DS: we could turn this into an opportunity that we are seeking from
    SVG Open people input on the requirements
    ... show them what we have so far

    ED: you're editing the document?

    <ed>
    [10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing
    _List_Feedback

      [10] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback

    CL: the wiki page, which I guess is the draft of that document

    <cyril> /me trying to call in from Australia but can't get the right
    prefix ...

    CL: where did the 15th come from?
    ... I'd like to resolve on having a draft of our uc+req document by
    the end of the F2F
    ... even if it's incomplete, just to set some direction

    ED: anyone opposed?

    (none)

    RESOLUTION: We will have a draft of SVG2 Use Cases & Reqs document
    by end of TPAC 2011 and publish a draft directly afterwards

    ED: should we assign an action to group these items on the wiki
    page?

    CM: do we need to do that now or just for publication?

    TB: would be better to do it earlier

    ED: we could do some of this at the SVG Open meeting
    ... shall we go through the remaining ones that don't have comments?
    ... I was wonder about the "use cleanup" one

    CL: I added something there about what I think it should be
    ... it relates to two issues
    ... one is being clearer about shadow dom/trees, how dynamic they
    are, whether they react to changes/liveness
    ... the second is the hokey inheritance into shadow trees

    CM: I think it needs investigation to see whether the style
    inheritance does need changes, what the implementation state is,
    etc.

    DS: we should look at the component model work
    ... maybe for SVG2 we say use is like a templating thing, the
    inheritance model etc., like the component model
    ... that way implementors only have to do oen thing, special cased
    slightly for use, instead of a very different thing for use

    CM: I agree

    <scribe> ACTION: Tab to investigate how to align SVG use with the
    Component Model [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3135 - Investigate how to align SVG use
    with the Component Model [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2011-10-20].

    DS: Tab says he thinks it would be relatively easy to do this, to
    have something that is very much like use but not identical

    <cyril> do you have a link to the Component Model description ?

    DS: I think we should get as close to use as we can with the
    existing Component Model, maybe modify the CM in response
    ... I want to ensure the use cases are covered, and as backwards
    compatible as possible
    ... the component model relies heavily on script, too

    TA: we are looking at the script based components first, but we will
    look at the declarative version

    CM: I did mean to look into the Component Model to see how it should
    work for the sXBL use cases, but I haven't had the time

    DS: we should do that, look at the sXBL/RCC use cases
    ... now that SVG is everywhere, doing things like replacing a table
    with a chart is something people will now want to do
    ... I've got this question a few times: does SVG have a data binding
    model?
    ... and I've said no, you can make one with script, but it doesn't
    have a native one
    ... and rather than having a big scripted solution, it could draw
    from the data to create the graph
    ... and the discussions we had earlier about making accessible
    infographics start to make more sense
    ... so the Component Model is interesting not just from the "use"
    perspective but also the "sXBL use cases" perspective

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to investigate the Component Model for SVG re
    sXBL use cases after 11 Nov 2011 [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3136 - Investigate the Component Model for
    SVG re sXBL use cases after 11 Nov 2011 [on Doug Schepers - due
    2011-10-20].

    <ed> [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011

SVG Open 2011 F2F

    ED: please add yourself to the wiki page if you're attending
    ... this will be on the workshop day
    ... depending on how much we have to discuss we could go for half a
    day or the whole day

    CM: what topics do we have for that day? at least Gradients for Tav?

    TB: maybe connectors?

    DS: I'm happy to talk about connectors, didn't think there was much
    support for it, but if we can build support for it, yeah

    TB: there's a group in Inkscape who is interested in that

    CL: that reminded me there's a group in Inkscape interested in
    variable width stroke, so let's put that on the agenda

    <ed>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011/agenda_p
    roposals

      [14] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/SVGOpen_2011/agenda_proposals

    DS: I have a spec for Connectors, even if it doesn't get into
    browsers right away, if it gets into authoring tools for static
    stuff, that could still be a useful step towards building support
    for it

    CL: I would like to call in. could someone try to find out whether
    there is a way?

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to ensure there is a phone available at the
    SVG Open 2011 F2F [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3137 - Ensure there is a phone available
    at the SVG Open 2011 F2F [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].

    ED: I suggest starting the SVG Open meeting early in the day to see
    whether we need the whole day or not
    ... there might be some people who want to go to the workshops

    <TabAtkins_> shepazu has to go to another meeting now

    CL: there was a request to discuss the mapping taskforce at the F2F
    ... so we should ensure there's a substantial discussion on that
    ... we should check to see whether andreas can attend

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to contact Andreas and Takagi-san about time
    and attendance of mapping taskforce discussion [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3138 - Contact Andreas and Takagi-san
    about time and attendance of mapping taskforce discussion [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].

    <ed> [17]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/Pre-TPAC2011/results

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/Pre-TPAC2011/results

requirements

    ED: improving the DOM
    ... that's a pretty large group of things

    CL: it's easy to resolve to make it better, but we need something
    more concrete
    ... so we should look at the work WebApps is doing to inform our SVG
    DOM improvements

    ED: we should scope our work to SVG DOM improvements and leave
    general improvements to the DOM WG

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to gather and write up a proposal for
    improving SVG DOM [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3139 - Gather and write up a proposal for
    improving SVG DOM [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-10-20].

    ED: text flow is another one that is a maybe for some people

    CL: I put down maybe because it's clearly a requirement, and there's
    people wanting to do it, otoh the way that we did it produced
    pushback from css/browser guys
    ... and now they actually have two specs that cover that
    (exclusions/regions)
    ... and it's likely that will work with svg too

    CM: so we can include it in the requirements document

    CL: but we should point out the different possible approaches
    (including using the css work)

    CM: connectors, it says inkscape folks are working on a proposal to
    submit about that

    TB: not sure they've started on the proposal, but they intend to

    ED: I think we can include it as a feature request
    ... btw do we need to worry about html5/xml?
    ... whether svg is based on the dom, or the markup

    CM: yes I think we should write the spec based on the DOM
    ... and include details on how particular markup produces a DOM

    ED: do we have a writeup of that?

    CM: don't think so, discussed briefly in Seattle
    ... I'd like to see more details

    ED: data attributes (and aria) is another thing we should look at
    from html

    CL: yes we should track that

    CM: "Intersection of superpath, vector effects and connectors"
    ... wasn't sure exactly what it was

    CL: something similar from vector effects, but it was a real drawing
    primitive, so probably shouldn't be in VE
    ... this is useful for shared path edges
    ... so renderers don't do hazy antialiasing when drawing two shapes
    with the shared edges
    ... smaller file size, too
    ... how that fits with connectors, couldn't tell
    ... a bit handwavey

    CM: so this is basically "shared path edges"

    CL: and compound shapes made of multiple paths

    <cyril> my colleague at Telecom ParisTech started a wiki page on
    shared path edges

    <cyril>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Mot
    ivation

      [19] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Motivation

    CL: this also means you need to be able to automatically reverse a
    path edge, for consistent filling

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to work up a shared path edge / superpath
    proposal [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3140 - Work up a shared path edge /
    superpath proposal [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-10-20].

    ACTION-3140: see also
    [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Mot
    ivation

      [21] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Shared_Path_Motivation

    <trackbot> ACTION-3140 Work up a shared path edge / superpath
    proposal notes added

    ED: next, declarative drawing, the replicate tag

    <cyril> chris, feel free to contact Jean-Claude Moissinac, he has
    several examples on which he could test the proposal

    CM: I guess I would like to see it grounded in use cases

    ED: I think the gradient-on-lines part of it is interesting

    <cyril> what is "gradient-on-lines" ?

    CL: one advantage is its declarativeness
    ... so it would work in HTML background images for example

    <ed> cyril: i meant contour gradients, similar to tubefy if you've
    seen that

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to tease out the different functionality from
    the "Declarative drawing" requirements entry [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3141 - Tease out the different
    functionality from the "Declarative drawing" requirements entry [on
    Erik Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].

    ED: next, function based input for animate

    CL: I'd like to see it motivated a bit more. I think I know what
    it's for, but I'm not sure.

    CM: we might have talked about something like that before, using
    SMIL for timing and JS for the value computation
    ... I remember wanting to be able to do that in the past, not sure
    if it was for anything practical

    ED: I'd like to see some actual examples, what it's trying to solve

    CM: should we ask david for details / use cases?

    CL: yes

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to contact David for more details on
    function-based input for animate [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3142 - Contact David for more details on
    function-based input for animate [on Erik Dahlström - due
    2011-10-20].

    ED: next, enhanced text support
    ... is that the same as the tubefy work?

    CM: yes I think the second dotpoint there is
    ... I can't remember what the outcome of the Seattle discussions on
    text warping was

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to find the outcome of Seattle text warping
    discussion and add it to requirements wiki page [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3143 - Find the outcome of Seattle text
    warping discussion and add it to requirements wiki page [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2011-10-20].

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to gather and write up a proposal for
    improving SVG DOM [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to work up a shared path edge / superpath
    proposal [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to investigate the Component Model for SVG re
    sXBL use cases after 11 Nov 2011 [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to contact Andreas and Takagi-san about time and
    attendance of mapping taskforce discussion [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to contact David for more details on
    function-based input for animate [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to ensure there is a phone available at the SVG
    Open 2011 F2F [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to find the outcome of Seattle text warping
    discussion and add it to requirements wiki page [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to tease out the different functionality from the
    "Declarative drawing" requirements entry [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tab to investigate how to align SVG use with the
    Component Model [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2011/10/13-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 13 October 2011 21:35:44 GMT

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