- From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 23:34:55 +0200
- To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Minutes from today's telcon here:
http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html
and as plain text:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
07 Jul 2011
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0007.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, [IPcaller], ed,
Tim_Horton
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
ed
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]TPAC 2011 registration
2. [6]FX charter items
3. [7]opentype / svgfonts
4. [8]SVG 1.1 second edition
5. [9]canvas accessibility
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 07 July 2011
<thorton> Zakim: +1.408 is me
<scribe> scribeNick: ed
TPAC 2011 registration
<heycam> [11]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
[11] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
CM: recently opened, it's in november
... wanted to clarify when the meeting will be?
ED: svgopen is October 17 to 20, 2011
... TPAC is 31 October to 4 November 2011
DS: there is some overlap in the dates for SVG, Webapps and (missed
bit)
<shepazu> [12]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/
[12] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2011/
CM: it says SVG may move to thu-fri
<heycam> shepazu, [13]http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
[13] http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
ED: would like to know when we'll meet at TPAC, mon-tue or thu-fri
CM, DS: would prefer thu-fri
ED: that's fine with me
CM: if we ask them to swap to thu-fri that wouldn't cause any
conflicts?
... maybe SVG was put mon-tue to not overlap with HTMLWG
DS: will see if we can get it changed to thu-fri
FX charter items
CM: vincent mailed the sheet with the latest discussions we had
... and CL said CSSWG was happy with those
... so both groups can move forward with chartering
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/000
8.html
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0008.html
FTR this was the proposal from the svg wg:
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/att
-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.
html
[15]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/att-0000/FX_Task_Force_and_Related_CSS___SVG_Specifications_and_Drafts.html
DS: will get to it this week, certainly before the next meeting
... anything we need to discuss wrt that?
CM: is there an FX call before the F2F?
ED: might be good, will send out an agenda for next monday
DS: the pointer-event spec hasn't been updated lately, maybe we need
a status update
CM: might be only on www-style
... TH are you attending the F2F in Seattle?
TH: I might
CM: another reminder for people to put their agenda items on the
wikipage
opentype / svgfonts
CM: on the call last week we had a generally positive response to
the proposal
... i think it would be good to send a response on the mailinglist,
perhaps an offer to work together
DS: i'm interesting doing more advanced fonts
ED: i do like the markup way, as already speced, to be able to mix
the content and do dynamic updates
... but I do see the positive aspects of the proposal
... it's just another way to encapsulate the font
CM: the proposal does seem to allow you to do dynamic stuff, but
with a wrapper and do some binary stuff
... point being, it's possible but not simple, to modify the font
data
... i think it does move to dynamic in-document manipulation
DS: interpreting and rendering the font is the bulk of the work, the
serialization is relatively minor
... if this is an acceptable format that everyone supports then we
can try to solve the serialization problem later if appropriate
CM: i agree with that
... whenever we expose lower level apis ninja javascript library
authors tend to make some nice abstractions from them
... bringing this topic up was to ask how the group should respond
to the thread
DS: i think we should offer to help, and send a positive response
ED: adding another serialization of svgfonts is fine with me
<scribe> ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on
behalf of the group [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - CM
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or
username (eg. charles, cmccorma)
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread
on behalf of the group [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3060 - Respond to the opentype/svgfont
thread on behalf of the group [on Cameron McCormack - due
2011-07-14].
SVG 1.1 second edition
CM: today is the last day to respond to the AC review survey
... only complaint is about references and relaxng/dtd
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/000
9.html
[18]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0009.html
CM: the DTD files in our repo were modified in the first LC?
ED: yes
[19]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/DTD/svg11-fla
t.dtd
[19]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd
CM: what were the changes we made?
ED: see the cvs changelog link above
DS: the rng would be informative?
CM: right
... so i don't think it's needed with the REC itself
... so we haven't made one
... we could say someone will make an RNG
... i think CL was going to talk to him about this
<heycam> and murata-san was going to make one
[20]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd
[20] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/DTD/svg11-flat.dtd
previous REC linked to
[21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat-20030114.dtd
[21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11-flat-20030114.dtd
ED: it's in a different location from the spec itself
CM: might make sense to install the modified DTD there too
DS: that works for me
... will check if we can make a change to add the informative
reference when we move to REC
CM: we need the published REC date in the url anyway
... and we need a new errata document to link to too
... so I expect such changes to be possible
<scribe> ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a
date + link to it from 1.1F2 [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3061 - Copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it
a date + link to it from 1.1F2 [on Cameron McCormack - due
2011-07-14].
CM: how do we proceed after today with moving to REC?
DS: *reading process document*
... assume CL and I will take care of it
... we'll get the documents in the right place and publish
canvas accessibility
<shepazu> [23]http://schepers.cc/retain-a11y-immediately
[23] http://schepers.cc/retain-a11y-immediately
DS: that's my proposal
<shepazu>
[24]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Accessibility_Use_Case
s
[24] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas_Accessibility_Use_Cases
DS: there has been a long discussion the canvas mailinglist
... rich schwerdfeger claims svg is not accessible
... canvas is an immidiate mode api, svg is a retained mode api
... they want to add retained mode characteristics to canvas
... primary use-case is so that screenreaders / magnifiers you'd be
able to find it and zoom
... whatever you need to zoom on
... charles pritchard suggested to make a subtree (you can tuck in
elements inside the canvas element and that's invisible but can be
exposed to a11y tools)
... e.g a dropdown
... other aspects of the subtree is that it can retain text
... you'd have to do it manually
CM: you'd have to manually mirror the content
... some proposals had some automated parts in it
DS: the functionality allows you to make an accessible html version
of whatever you made in canvas
... personally i think it's barking up the wrong tree
... when it was just functional things, say a form control in canvas
that you then made an accessible equivalent of that
... but then it's also the shape of the thing, the boundingbox of
the form control
... and that's when people said this is svg
... instead of making an svg-like thing, why not just use svg?
... you can already layer svg on top of canvas
... you can integrate svg and canvas on the rendering level, and you
could put the svg either in the dom, or in the subtree underneath
the canvas, or you could put it in the dom and reflect it in the
subtree
... either put it in the dom, or in the subtree-dom, or a pointer to
the subtree dom
CM: not sure i follow
... the last part
DS: you could e.g put an svg:use element to link to something
CM: what is the distinction?
DS: if you put in svg elements they could render to the canvas
... but it would have all the location information
CM: the inverse of that seems logical
... having canvaslike things inside an svg tree
... a pixelbased container
DS: right, that's been discussed before, drawing using the canvas
api to an svg:image element for example
CM: that is closer to their main use-case i think
... make widgets in svg
DS: two vendors have already said that they don't want to add
retainedmode functionality to canvas, since there's already svg
CM: in the proposals you'd have to do manual work to get things
accessible
... doing something more complex with WAI and ARIA is what we need
to do
DS: CM your aria-region idea was reasonable
... curious, how would we like to see svg and canvas mixed? and
would it satisfy the usecases the a11y ppl are looking at
CM: probably we'd get back that svg isn't accessible yet, or if it's
enough to allow aria attributes on all svg elements or if we need to
do more
DS: we probably have to do a bit more
... first we have the logical form controls
... then you have the geometric information
... maybe they want to have the geometric info completely separate
from the logical / navigation order stuff and functionality of the
form controls
CM: right, in the subtree theyr'e using aria attributes to have form
controls as values and tab order
... the region where they're painted on the canvas is defined in
another way
DS: they're trying to accomplish different things
... whole thing seems like a kludge
... best thing we can do as a group
... with their proposal you'd have to maintain the dom yourself and
mirror the logics
... it seems theyre willing to settle for different but equal, but
if you have to maintain it yourself it's going to be worse than if
you have an api that allows you to do both immidiate mode and
retained mode graphics
... with my API you'd say if you wanted retained or not when you use
the API
CM: so you can use the smae painting calls?
DS: yes
... if you have an asteroids game you have lots of objects that you
need to track but they're not possible to interact with, until they
get close enough to interact with, at which point you say now i want
retained mode
... i think what people liked the most was the idea of only having
to learn one api for canvas and svg, even if there are some
differences between the two
... would like to have a discussion on canvas/svg integration
CM: good topic for the F2F?
DS: yes
... they may be thinking of full svg implementation compared to
canvas implementation in thirdparty products, and then tipping over
in favor of a simpler model
... not necessarily involving browsers
... however if it's meant to be proprietary then why force it on
everyone?
... will write up some use-cases around this and put it on the svg
wiki
... and we can discuss it at the f2f
<thorton> phone's down!
<shepazu> nope, all good, heycam
<shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: cameron to copy over the 1.1F2 DTD and give it a date
+ link to it from 1.1F2 [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on
behalf of the group [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: CM to respond to the opentype/svgfont thread on behalf
of the group [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version 1.136
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$Date: 2011/07/07 21:31:37 $
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[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/javascript library authors/ninja javascript library author
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Found ScribeNick: ed
Inferring Scribes: ed
Default Present: heycam, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.839.aaaa, [IPcaller], ed
, Tim_Horton
Present: heycam Doug_Schepers +1.408.839.aaaa [IPcaller] ed Tim_Horton
Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSe
p/0007.html
Found Date: 07 Jul 2011
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron cm
[31]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0007.html
[32] http://www.w3.org/2011/07/07-svg-minutes.html
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--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Thursday, 7 July 2011 21:35:32 UTC