- From: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:11:33 +0200
- To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
Hello public-svg-wg,
The minutes of the 12 August SVG telcon are at http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html
and below as text for bots.
SVG Working Group Teleconference
12 Aug 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0040.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Doug, Chris, Cameron, Anthony, Erik, Jonothan
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
Chris
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]SVG 1.1 Second Edition progress, tests
2. [6]Test suite template
3. [7]Pinned clip module
4. [8]animVal object identity [www-svg]
5. [9]MAMA
6. [10]Platform evolution and attributeType="auto" [www-svg]
* [11]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 12 August 2009
<scribe> Scribe: Chris
<scribe> ScribeNick: ChrisL
<scribe> Agenda:
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/004
0.html
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0040.html
<scribe> Meeting: SVG WG
SVG 1.1 Second Edition progress, tests
CM: Checking up where we are at. Close to finish. Did all my spec
editing actions and test for my section of erratta
... reviewed tests already linked by other people
... can pick up one or two other tests from the slackers
s/.. can/... can/
<heycam>
[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_
Edition
[13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition
CL: I will go looking for which tests are needed. Not done yet sorry
CM: Can't review my own tests
... please review tests
... Couple of outstanding errata, two from Doug one from JWatt
... should we discuss at next weeks telcon?
DS: Sure
... JWatt said he had resewrvations about complicating the model for
clipping and visibility
CM: After that, only a couple of admin tasks like building the PDF
... but would like to see a couple of items on todays agenda
resolved before publication
... JWatt, we will discuss some of this next week
Test suite template
CM: Anthony, you had things to discuss? Sections for test
description section?
AG: Not sure about which is the best structure
C: Current template split into descriotion, operator script and pass
criteria
... automatic conversion put all previous stuff into one of these,
not eassy to split automatically
s/C: CM:/
CM: So we need to split them manually?
AG: Split some where it was obvious. Others need a bit more work
CM: How would we use the different sections? ie whats the impact of
having it all on one bit?
AG: Its a better organisation, easier to read, and to check
CL: Splitting may make it easier to see tests that have poor pass
criteria
CM: No impact on actually running the tests though
... Status of harness generation scripts?
AG: For SE its same as the old one, needs to be modified to grab
stuff from new template. Have not modified the harness
... used these scripts for 1.2T testsuite.
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to fix up 1.1SE test suite harness for new
template [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2647 - Fix up 1.1SE test suite harness for
new template [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-08-19].
ED: Are we still going to strip out the test descriptions to do
svggen like we used to?
CL: Think svggen is pointless, no need for svggen any more
... Same as with 1.2T
CM: So no revision number problems either
C: Other thing is that test decription has a test component child,
what is that for?
AG: For subtests
... but subtests could have separate pass criteria so maybe this is
not a good idea (looks at template)
C: I have been writing the pass criteria all in one section, seems
to be fine
AG: Should we split up or not in the template?
CM: Prefer to not split it up. Though difficult to link to multiple
sections of the spec....
AG: OK will fix so the script only needs to deal with three sections
(agreed)
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony edit the test template to remove child
sections for subtests [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2648 - Edit the test template to remove
child sections for subtests [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-08-19].
AG: I will make the same change to the modules template
CM: Do any of the modules have tests yet?
(yes)
CM: Best to keep it all consistent
Pinned clip module
[16]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/pinnedclip/publish/
[16] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/pinnedclip/publish/
CM: Notice Doug checked it into public repository
DS: Alex Danilo sent it to me, so checked it in
... in case we need it for SVG2
CM: Does he plan to work on it?
DS: Will check
... One of the ogg theora people raised the issue offlist, asking if
SVG talks about pixel orientation, where the pixel starts (top
left,centre) and pinned clip covers that
... asked him to comment on public list
CL: We really need to decide as different rendering libraries are
off by 0.5 pixel because of this
... Prefer to look at this and decide the majority solution
ED: Opera does centre
DS: Should be a SHOULD, but we should pick one
CL;: Would like to see a test, then picj what most do
DS: Alex said that top left is assumed, so 0,0 is the top left of
the top left (quotes from an email)
CL: Please get permission to forward that email
DS: And the tests he is talking about
CL: Would changing be an issue for Opera, is there content that
relies on centre pixel positioning?
<ed>
data:image/svg+xml;charset=utf-8;base64,PHN2ZyB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3
dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciIHhtbG5zOnhsaW5rPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy8x
OTk5L3hsaW5rIj4NCgk8bGluZSB4MT0iMTAiIHkxPSIxMCIgeDI9IjEwMCIgeTI9IjEw
IiBzdHJva2U9ImJsYWNrIi8%2BDQoJPGxpbmUgeDE9IjEwIiB5MT0iMjAuNSIgeDI9Ij
EwMCIgeTI9IjIwLjUiIHN0cm9rZT0iYmxhY2siLz4NCjwvc3ZnPg%3D%3D
ED: Don't think so. Made a test ....
<ed> <line x1="10" y1="10" x2="100" y2="10" stroke="black"/>
<ed> <line x1="10" y1="20.5" x2="100" y2="20.5" stroke="black"/>
Safari, Opera and Firefox seem to use pixel centres
JW: One will give sharp lines, the other gives sharp edges on
rectangles
ED: Wonder if shape-rendering affects it
CM: Shape-rendering set to geometric-precision makes one blurry
(We find opoosite results on Mac and on Windows)
(some disagrement vs platform, browser version, lcd type ...)
macbook vs macbook pro seems tobe different
ED: Opera versions should be the same on all platforms modulo
floating point libraries
ISSUE: Whether a given integer coordinate is pixel centre or pixel
top-left needs to be determined
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2291 - Whether a given integer coordinate
is pixel centre or pixel top-left needs to be determined ; please
complete additional details at
[17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2291/edit .
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2291/edit
animVal object identity [www-svg]
[18]http://www.w3.org/mid/65fa1620908061811n4271a4c8nc26993dc529c085
2@mail.gmail.com
[18] http://www.w3.org/mid/65fa1620908061811n4271a4c8nc26993dc529c0852@mail.gmail.com
<ed> may have been confusing the two things btw, sampling is done in
the center but the coordinates in the file are top-left I believe
<ed> (for opera)
Brian Birtles was asking if animval is writable. Unclear whether
'same as baseval' is pointer to same object or two copies
scribe: can change baseval, but can't change animval. Unless they
are piujnters to same object
CL: But if they are bing animval, then writing will be overwritten
JW: Attempts to write to animval should throw
CM: Think shttas the case
... Second issue is about the exception
... BB said it would be more consistent to trying to assign to
.animval if there was no throwing
... but animval.value does throw
... Thing its normal
JW: Does webidl fix that?
CM: It could currently says assigning to readonly is ignored
JW: Silently failis hard to debug
CM: Related to strict mode in ecma 5, in strict mode it thows
JW: Do we currently just reference what ECMA says?
CM: Currently we point to third edition?
(fourth edition shall not be mentioned)
CM: So suggest we resolve the ambiguity by saying its always a
separate object to baseval
... its readonly, cant change, animval.value would throw an
exception always, not just when there is an animation in progress
... Would need special processing to see if baseval is recomputed
(scribe mayhave misunderstood)
<heycam>
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Aug/0016.html
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Aug/0016.html
CM: tested a bunch of implementations, browser and standalone, they
always have distinct objects for baseval and animval
... Proposal is to make them distinct objects
JW: Seems fine to me
Resolved: Clarify that basevaland animval are separate objects
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Clarify that basevaland animval are
separate objects [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2649 - Clarify that basevaland animval are
separate objects [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-08-19].
MAMA
ED: Sent mail to guy running MAMA on Opera, some responses
... does it run scripts, does it do propoer parsing. Its a static
analysis, some parsing but they are not run
... so script side effects not seen
... also asked for stats on svg on the web, so it only does static
analysis and misses mixed html and svg
... pointed him to some frameworks that use svg like dojo and
raphael
... he could count uses of thise frameworks
... asked on stats for methods in SVG DOM used
... will send him the details needed to do that. Can do in static
analysis
... Frequency analysis of svg elements and attributes could be done,
is not done yet
... does not handle inline svg, easy to add
... asked about svg and stylesheets, no results yet
... many people asking for svg stuff to be added to Mama, david
story, chaals asked
[21]http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
[21] http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
ED: Still waiting for answers to some questions
Platform evolution and attributeType="auto" [www-svg]
[22]http://www.w3.org/mid/11e306600908101658q2f1a7efaubcc88a6f04362e
32@mail.gmail.com
[22] http://www.w3.org/mid/11e306600908101658q2f1a7efaubcc88a6f04362e32@mail.gmail.com
<heycam> CL: originally we didn't have attributeType
<heycam> ... it was assumed the impl would know if it was a
property, otherwise assume it's an attribute
<heycam> ... this only makes a difference with external stylesheets
<heycam> ... if it's a formatting property on an element, it makes
no difference
<heycam> ... the only time it makes a difference is if the external
style sheet is there and has a higher specificity that overrides the
presentation attribute
<heycam> ... since most svgs don't have external stylesheets,
there's no discernable effect
<ed> <style>rect { fill: red !important }</style> for example
<heycam> ... the other time it makes a difference is if there's a
prop and attr of the same name
<heycam> ... this came up in amaya
<heycam> ... where it thought width/height attrs on svg were the
same as the css properties
<heycam> ... so it would need to keep those distinct
<heycam> ... and because of that one case, attributeType was
introduced
<heycam> ... if you really happen to know if there's a conflicting
attribute/property on an element, and you want to decide which, you
can use attributeType
<heycam> ... so roc's comment about it limiting extensibility with
default 'auto' value is true
<heycam> ... in 99% of cases it makes no difference. but if you had
to say attributeType="css" for every time you animate a css
property, it would be annoying
<heycam> ... so if you we introduce an animatable property in the
future with the same name as an attribute, then yes it would cause
trouble for future-compat
<heycam> ... so we shouldn't do that
<heycam> DS: how does width/height differ in css?
<heycam> CL: width/height properties on root svg help decide how
large the svg is in the containing document
<heycam> ... if you try to apply the properties to the svg element
itself it wouldn't do anything
<heycam> ... it's kind of a corner case
<heycam> ... 'fill' is another clashing attribute name case
<heycam> ... from smil, and for the painting property
<heycam> ... but you can't disambiguate there
<heycam> CM: and the SMIL fill is never animatable anyway
<heycam> CL: so the auto value does what you want in 99% of cases
<heycam> DS: what needs to be done about this?
<heycam> CL: an explanation about why it's not a problem in practice
would be my suggestion
<heycam> CM: so we'll say we won't introduce properties that clash
in this way
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to respond to RoC on Platform evolution and
attributeType="auto" [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2650 - Respond to RoC on Platform
evolution and attributeType="auto" [on Chris Lilley - due
2009-08-19].
DS: This should be clarified in the spec as wel as in an email
... so clarify the spec and point him to that
JW: and hurry, send an interim response if there will be any delay
because SMIL is being implemented currently
... 3.6 will be a short release, should be in 3.7
... Daniel Holbert and Brian Birtles working on it
... 3.6 is going straight to beta in a week or two
... should ship in January (my very rough guess)
... smil not enabled by default, as incomplete and buggy but can be
anabled using about:config
... in nightlies, not 3.5
DS: Could an extension enable the support?
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony edit the test template to remove child
sections for subtests [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to fix up 1.1SE test suite harness for new
template [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Clarify that basevaland animval are
separate objects [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to respond to RoC on Platform evolution and
attributeType="auto" [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]
--
Chris Lilley mailto:chris@w3.org
Technical Director, Interaction Domain
W3C Graphics Activity Lead
Co-Chair, W3C Hypertext CG
Received on Wednesday, 12 August 2009 08:11:50 UTC