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Minutes, March 30, 2009 telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:17:12 +0200
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.urmiqqv2geuyw5@blorp.xn--dahlstrm-t4a.net>
Minutes here:

   http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html

and for trackbot:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

30 Mar 2009

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0323.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, jwatt, ed_, anthony, heycam

    Regrets
    Chair
           Cameron

    Scribe
           erik

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]CSS/SVG coordination list
          2. [6]Trait accessors for animation
          3. [7]SVG integration module
          4. [8]SVG in HTML
          5. [9]Thoughts on cleaning up SVG 1.1 for Second Edition
          6. [10]Raising the issue of multi-threading
          7. [11]ICC color
          8. [12]telcon times
          9. [13]f2f meeting dates
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 30 March 2009

    <shepazu> ChrisL: remember, we set it an hour back?

    <ChrisL> huh?

    <shepazu> it's not for another hour

    <shepazu> has the EU DST kicked in?

    <ChrisL> I thought we were waiting for australia to change, next
    week

    <ChrisL> yes, it kicked in on Sunday

    <shepazu> that explains it

    <ChrisL> zakim believes its now

    <shepazu> here, it's still just 2:40, the telcon is scheduled for
    3:30 boston time

    <shepazu> yes, zakim has been confused for weeks

    <shepazu> I put in the request a while back, but it doesn't seem to
    have taken

    <shepazu> er

    <shepazu> freudian slip?

    <shepazu> well, I got a response, but it didn't seem to work

    <shepazu> sure, you know my #?

    <shepazu> 1-919-932-9872

    <shepazu> btw, I've rethought the new telcon times

    <shepazu> I can try to get up at 6:30 for a 7:00 call, if it works
    better for you

    <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon

    <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

    <trackbot> Date: 30 March 2009

    <ChrisL> zakim +00 is me

    <scribe> scribe: erik

    <scribe> scribeNick: ed_

CSS/SVG coordination list

    DS: we've got this list now, for future transforms specs we should
    point to this list

    <shepazu> public-fx@w3.org

Trait accessors for animation

    <heycam>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/mid/A13D0B44629697468E9C6AE200CFD39A61A231FB1C
    @mailkeeper.mdigitalm.com

      [15]  
http://www.w3.org/mid/A13D0B44629697468E9C6AE200CFD39A61A231FB1C@mailkeeper.mdigitalm.com

    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    7.html

      [16]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0327.html

    CM: yeah, it should be the fill for the animation elements, not the
    <animation> element only
    ... create an erratum for this?

    <scribe> ACTION: AG to create an erratum for SVGT12, clarifying
    'fill' in traitaccess, see
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    7.html [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action01]

      [17]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0327.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2505 - Create an erratum for SVGT12,
    clarifying 'fill' in traitaccess, see
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    7.html [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-04-06].

      [19]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0327.html

SVG integration module

    DS: we could make a spec that would be the lists of all elements in
    all svg specs
    ... it would have method names, attribute names, and it would be
    normative
    ... and point to definitions of the relevant specs
    ... and also how svg integrates with other web techs, e.g svg in
    html:img... need not be html, could be docbook, odf etc
    ... have different usage scenarios
    ... that way the html5 spec wouldn't have to a list of
    elements/attributes
    ... for svg

    CL: right, we could produce such a list

    CM: you mention this table, and security issues etc
    ... it'd be good to have somewhere to write it down
    ... i think it warrants a spec, this is a common theme

    DS: yes, these are all integration issues
    ... this would be good for ODF, if they decide to use svg as a
    native image format

    CM: we could bring it back into svg 2.0 when it's ready

    DS: should we do this?

    CL: don't see a down side for doing this

    DS: how hard would it be to change the scripts to generate tables of
    elements/attributes?

    CM: probably not that hard
    ... the tiny12 has an rng, and that would be easy
    ... hsivonen is using a slightly modified version of the full 1.1
    RNG, so it can't be that far off
    ... it'd be easier if 1.1 had an RNG, there's one

    <ChrisL> look into trang

    CM: we'd like to have all elements from 1.1 and 1.2T, right?

    CL/DS: yes

    DS: it'd still be a good idea to rewrite the RNG into functional
    modules

    CL: maybe start with the SVG 1.2 and then delete stuff

    DS: we could get rberjon to help us
    ... our rng was flawed in a few places for 1.2T

    RESOLUTION: we will make an SVG integration module

    DS: it would be nice because we could get a diff between 1.1 and
    1.2T, for elements etc

    CM: probably one reason to get a such a table would be to get HTML5
    to reference it

    CL: producing it will still help other people/specs

    <scribe> ACTION: heycam to create an SVG integration module and
    setup scripts for it [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2506 - Create an SVG integration module
    and setup scripts for it [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-06].

    <scribe> ACTION: DS to contact robin berjon to ask for help with
    converting the 1.1 DTD to RNG and related issues [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2507 - Contact robin berjon to ask for
    help with converting the 1.1 DTD to RNG and related issues [on Doug
    Schepers - due 2009-04-06].

SVG in HTML

    CM: we sent off our proposal document, which didn't address all of
    the points
    ... little of which actually resulted in changes in the html5 spec

    <ChrisL> So this document was produced as an action in the HTML WG,
    then rejected out of hand?

    CM: it seems ian doesn't really want to get proposed working, so
    wording on that document itself seems a waste of time

    <ChrisL> Suggest contacting the chair to ensure our document is
    reviewed

    CL: suggest to talk to the HTMLWG chair and put it on their agenda

    CM: there discussions ongoing on www-svg, and public-html

    <heycam> CM: perhaps for now the best venue for these discussions is
    on those mailing lists, then

    <shepazu> y'all calling back?

    <jwatt> gah!

    <jwatt> conf restricted

    <heycam> jwatt, use 26631 as the code

    <jwatt> when?

    <heycam> when you dial back in?

    <jwatt> thought you meant as a passcode :/

    <jwatt> ta

    CM: I have an action to collate the remaining issues we hadn't got
    consensus on yet
    ... and to integrate them into the document
    ... but maybe it would be better to crosspost them to the
    mailinglist instead?

    DS: can we change the SVG 1.1 so radically (to convert the 1.1 DTD
    to RNG)?

    CL: we should talk to philippe about that

    <scribe> ACTION: CL to check if we can replace the SVG 1.1 DTD with
    an RNG [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2508 - Check if we can replace the SVG 1.1
    DTD with an RNG [on Chris Lilley - due 2009-04-06].

    CM: so, what about discussing the HTML issues on the lists?

    CL: sounds good

    DS: yeah

    CM: there are some constructive discussions going on there
    ... ok, I'll post the things we don't have consensus on
    ... and suggest that everyone join in on the discussions

Thoughts on cleaning up SVG 1.1 for Second Edition

    CM: i'm looking at remaking the build scripts
    ... and also how to make 1.1 look a bit better
    ... to build the 1.1 spec and get the second edition published
    ... in the old cvs there's no master copy, so the source is rather
    bad

    <heycam> [23]http://mcc.id.au/temp/struct.html

      [23] http://mcc.id.au/temp/struct.html

    <ChrisL> the code seems to have autogenerated markup but we don't
    have the sources or the scripts from which it was built

    CM: here's an example of how it could look, main change is replacing
    the DTD fragments with something more readable

    DS: an author reading the spec will understand this more easily

    CM: the IDL will get generated definitions also
    ... I've written an IDL parser, and use that for generating the
    interface definitions

    <heycam> <a>'svg'</a>

    CM: another advantage is that in the master version you can write
    <a>'svg'</a> and have it transformed into something useful

    <heycam> <a>container element</a>

    DS: and for definitions?

    CM: yes

    <ChrisL> for elements, attributes, properties and definitions

    CL: what about types? strings, iri?

    <ChrisL> cool

    CM: could use the same, not done yet though

    CL: would be useful to have them

    CM: the intro chapter defs would be nice, and where elements are in
    the spec etc
    ... parsing of
    ... if people are happy with this style then I can commit the
    scripts

    CL: would like to use it for new modules

    CM: could help with cross spec references too
    ... will check it into cvs even though it's not fully ready
    ... will let ppl know when it's ready for use
    ... links to interfaces would be nice

Raising the issue of multi-threading

    CM: AA was asking about getBBox, and multithreading

    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    1.html

      [24]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0321.html

    JW: it's contrary to how you use the DOM, and it wouldn't stop it
    from getting svg bbox

    CL: multithreading is fine, if you can get advantages from it
    ... but you have to deal with making the implementation behave a
    certain predictable way

    <ChrisL> but you have to sync up the threads

    CM: right, to have getBBox block until you can get a valid result
    ... it took a while until Firefox returned proper values from
    getBBox, and to break that would be a step backwards
    ... there's content that relies on this already

    ED:
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    4.html has some suggestions for clarifying getBBox
    ... 1.1 doesn't have the 1.2T wording about implementation-dependent
    bboxes for elements outside the document tree

      [25]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0324.html

    JW: values can sometimes be resolved in a meaningful way, eg.
    <svg><rect></svg>

    <scribe> ACTION: ed to create an errata item for SVG 1.1 and the
    getBBox method, as described in
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    1.html [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action05]

      [26]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0321.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2509 - Create an errata item for SVG 1.1
    and the getBBox method, as described in
    [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    1.html [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-04-06].

      [28]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0321.html

    <ChrisL> [29]http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php

      [29] http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php

    <ChrisL> in the link above there is also a Firefox pre3.6+SMIL

ICC color

    [CL explains @color-profile]

    JW: would be nice to have a way to specify the profile for the
    document
    ... if you wanted to resuse some profile from someone, you might
    want to set on a subtree only

    CL: in terms of minimizing the syntax it won't give you much
    ... you'd still have to do the rgb fallbacks
    ... reasonable to make some changes but might be incompatible with
    1.1

    AG: I've got some ppl here to review the color spec
    ... underspecified for printing, overspecified for web authoring

    CL: i'd like to know the details of those

    AG: what group do we want to target?

    CL: I'd think both

    <ChrisL> its for repurposing content, screen+print, with an eye on
    screen improving

    CL: we haven't covered colormatched raster images
    ... if you mix raster and vectors you want to fit colors together

    AG: agree that the web needs more than sRGB

telcon times

    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/020
    2.html

      [30]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0202.html

    Mon 11:00 AM UTC, Mon 1:00 PM Central Europe, Mon 9:00 PM Eastern
    Australia, Mon 7:00 AM Eastern US/Canada.

    Wed 11:00 AM UTC, Wed 1:00 PM Central Europe, Wed 9:00 PM Eastern
    Australia, Wed 7:00 AM Eastern US/Canada.

    CM: fine for me

    ED: great for me

    DS: i'm flexible

    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/027
    1.html

      [31]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0271.html

    [32]http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2
    009&month=4&day=1&hour=6&min=30&sec=0&p1=239&p2=240&p3=188&iv=1800

      [32]  
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=4&day=1&hour=6&min=30&sec=0&p1=239&p2=240&p3=188&iv=1800

    <ChrisL>
    [33]http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=5&d
    ay=1&year=2009&p1=239&p2=240&p3=188&p4=-1&iv=1800

      [33]  
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=5&day=1&year=2009&p1=239&p2=240&p3=188&p4=-1&iv=1800

    <ChrisL> Fri 8:30 AM Stockholm Fri 4:30 PM Sydney 02:30 AM NC

    <ChrisL> 8:30 AM Stockholm Fri 4:30 PM Sydney 02:30 AM NC

    <ChrisL> Mon and Weds

f2f meeting dates

    CL: june f2f date conflicts with CSS meeting

    [34]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/NCF2F2009

      [34] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/NCF2F2009

    <ChrisL> css wg is 3-5 June

    DS: we could colocate with libregraphics

    <ChrisL> [35]http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2009/

      [35] http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2009/

    <ChrisL> Montreal, 6 - 9 may 2009

    DS: maybe next year we could do that

    <ChrisL> [36]http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2009/

      [36] http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2009/

    DS: let's plan our F2F for the second week of june

    June 8 - 12

    AG: fine with me

    <ChrisL> [37]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

      [37] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Meetings

    <ChrisL> need to update that, and the poll

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: AG to create an erratum for SVGT12, clarifying 'fill'
    in traitaccess, see
    [38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    7.html [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: CL to check if we can replace the SVG 1.1 DTD with an
    RNG [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: DS to contact robin berjon to ask for help with
    converting the 1.1 DTD to RNG and related issues [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed to create an errata item for SVG 1.1 and the
    getBBox method, as described in
    [42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/032
    1.html [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: heycam to create an SVG integration module and setup
    scripts for it [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html#action02]

      [38]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0327.html
      [42]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0321.html

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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     $Date: 2009/03/30 21:14:19 $
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      [45] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/reject/request/
Succeeded: s/everybody loves html, high five!/SVG in HTML/
Succeeded: s/working/wording/
Succeeded: s/other stuff/ICC color/
Found Scribe: erik
Found ScribeNick: ed_

WARNING: Replacing list of attendees.
Old list: Shepazu heycam [IPcaller] ed_ +003395249aaaa ChrisL anthony j
watt
New list: ChrisL Doug_Schepers jwatt ed_ anthony heycam

Default Present: ChrisL, Doug_Schepers, jwatt, ed_, anthony, heycam
Present: ChrisL Doug_Schepers jwatt ed_ anthony heycam
Agenda: [48]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMa
r/0323.html
Found Date: 30 Mar 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [49]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ag cl ds ed heycam

      [48]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0323.html
      [49] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/30-svg-minutes.html

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-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 30 March 2009 21:18:04 GMT

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