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Re: Minutes, 26 Feb 2009 SVG telcon

From: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:33 -0500
Message-ID: <49A81F01.50609@w3.org>
To: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
CC: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Hi, Anthony-

Since you haven't yet checked the ISO spec, and have been developing the 
algorithms independently, it might be prudent to hold off reading 
ISO32000 or using anything from it when updating the Compositing module. 
  Let's go with the algorithms Canon provided for now, until we are 
clear on where we stand.

Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs

Leonard Rosenthol wrote (on 2/27/09 7:29 AM):
> Two things on the ISO32000 and equation items...
>
> You can NOT copy the material (including the equations) from that
> document into the SVG documentation.  The material in the ISO
> document is copyrighted by the ISO (and jointly by Adobe Systems).
>
> If the concern of having a "paid for" normative reference is the only
> thing stopping you, then I recommend you point at the Adobe version
> of ISO 32000
> (<http://www.adobe.com/devnet/acrobat/pdfs/PDF32000_2008.pdf>) which
> is freely available (as part of an agreement with the ISO).
>
> Leonard
>
> -----Original Message----- From: public-svg-wg-request@w3.org
> [mailto:public-svg-wg-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Chris Lilley Sent:
> Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:05 PM To: public-svg-wg@w3.org Subject:
> Minutes, 26 Feb 2009 SVG telcon
>
> Hello public-svg-wg,
>
> Minutes are at http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html
>
> and below as text for tracker. Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION:
> anthony draft use cases and requirements for z-index and compare and
> contrast with transforms and critically discuss with reference to a
> neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03] [NEW] ACTION:
> anthony to check equations for blending and add informative ref to
> ISO 32000-1 [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01] [NEW] ACTION:
> doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]
>
>
>
> SVG Working Group Teleconference
>
> 26 Feb 2009
>
> [2]Agenda
>
> [2]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0172.html
>
>  See also: [3]IRC log
>
> [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-irc
>
> Attendees
>
> Present Shepazu, heycam, ed__, ChrisL, [IPcaller], anthony, erik, a,
> dalek
>
> Regrets Chair erik
>
> Scribe chris
>
> Contents
>
> * [4]Topics 1. [5]Referencing ISO-32000-1 for blending Compositing
> module] 2. [6]transforms review 3. [7]Transitions and Animations 4.
> [8]z-index use cases and requirements 5. [9]tpac 2009 6. [10]back to
> transforms 7. [11]odf and svg * [12]Summary of Action Items
> _________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> <trackbot>  Date: 26 February 2009
>
> <scribe>  scribe: chris
>
> <scribe>  scribenick: chrisl
>
> Referencing ISO-32000-1 for blending [Compositing module]
>
> cl: is this a normative or informative reference, and will the
> equations be in our spec of just referenced?
>
> cmc: costs money?
>
> cl: of course
>
> ds: prefer to have the equations in our spec, can reference the ISO
> as well ... and better to be in a RF spec
>
> cl: normative or informative?
>
> ds: informative. Useful to know the connection between them
>
> cl: agree
>
> cmc: if its nortmative then you still should buy it in case
>
> ed: good to have all the equations in our spec
>
> resolved: equations for compositing will be in the svg spec, with an
> informative reference to ISO 3200-1
>
> <scribe>  ACTION: anthony to check equations for blending and add
> informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [recorded in
> [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01]
>
> <trackbot>  Created ACTION-2480 - Check equations for blending and
> add informative ref to ISO 32000-1 [on Anthony Grasso - due
> 2009-03-05].
>
> ag: will do, not checked the equations yet ... will check the
> equations again, needs some testing to verify
>
> transforms review
>
> <anthony>
> [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review
>
> [14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review
>
> [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/Ove
> rview.html?rev=1.3&content-type=text/html:%20charset=iso-8859-1
>
> [15]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/Overview.html?rev=1.3&content-type=text/html:%20charset=iso-8859-1
>
>  cl: (explains stacking context)
>
> ds: liked your email comments, chris... they seem more likely to be
> fruitful
>
> before "Currently, Firefox and Safari throw away" say "Since backward
> compatibility is important we tested current browwsers and currently
> ...."
>
> should probably motivate why openvg is important
>
> existing implementations get acceleration from openvg, etc
>
> cl: the overasll review document is good, I just had some specific
> comments
>
> ds: its important that we support css in this useful work
>
> ed: sounds good
>
> ag: been editing live, these are ready to go
>
> cmc: i have a few detailed comments in email ... want clarification
> on matrix sizes and math
>
> ag: need to commit the new draft of svg transforms
>
> cl: the css spec needs some references to explain transforms and
> matrices for those unaware
>
> ed: we have a minuted resolution to publish
>
> ds: plh said recently that tight integration and strong coordination
> is important
>
> ag: did we respond to dean's email?
>
> cmc: send a reply to dean thanking him, and point to this review?
>
> <scribe>  ACTION: doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded
> in [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]
>
> <trackbot>  Created ACTION-2481 - Reply to Dean on 3d transforms [on
> Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-05].
>
> referencing
> [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review
>
> [17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review
>
> cmc: i still have some comments yet to make
>
> ds: ok lets talks offline and I will send it over the weekend
>
> cl: css wg will likely be discussing these documents next week in
> japan
>
> Transitions and Animations
>
> cmc: so we are going to send outr individual non-svgf related stuff
> directly, and coordinate on a wg response for the svg specific
> aspects
>
> ds: think individual responses is more timely and allows more
> discussion ... send responses to www-style with cc to www-svg
>
> ed: i have a bunch of feedback on that, will send it next week
>
> z-index use cases and requirements
>
> issue-2226?
>
> <trackbot>  ISSUE-2226 -- Investigate the use cases and requirements
> for z-index -- RAISED
>
> <trackbot>  [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2226
>
> [18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2226
>
> ed: good to have an action on this. ... does our spec deal with
> z-index?
>
> ag: we have discussed it, in Sydney
>
> [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/15-svg-minutes.html#item05
>
> [19] http://www.w3.org/2009/02/15-svg-minutes.html#item05
>
> pointer to stacking context
> [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html
>
> [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html
>
> ed: we could define z-index the same way so that it also applies to
> svg as well as being compatible with html
>
> 'z-index'
>
> Value: auto |<integer>  | inherit
>
> Initial: auto
>
> Applies to: positioned elements
>
> Inherited: no
>
> Percentages: N/A
>
> Media: visual
>
> Computed value: as specified
>
> ag: instead of z-index, could also use the transform-style property,
> to switch on z-ordering for a group of objects
>
> cl: interesting option
>
> ag: yes as it could apply only to container elements ... similar to
> layered groups ... as soon as document order is lost, impact on
> streaming and rendering speed so being able to isolate the effects is
> beneficial
>
> ds: would that need a whole shadow tree? ... if we have layered
> groups, it could be implemented by making a shadow tree that replaces
> the docuent order subtree. but that could be expensive on memory
>
> cl: impact on filter effects / render background, and on event
> bubbling .....
>
> cmc: would complicate document updates as well
>
> ds: maybe contact andrew and ask about layeredg
>
> ed: think you just need a different tree traversal order, not a whole
> copy of the subtree
>
> ds: impact of that on keyboard navigation / docuent order? ... would
> this affect hierarchy eg with a use element that points outside the
> z-ordered group ... example of two circles bing twiddled on z-order,
> then two use elements that point to them
>
> ag: i would say no, it gets really complex. import the transform not
> the layered group it could get really hairy
>
> ds: right, using them outside the layering context gets document
> order not this new rendering order
>
> ag: trying to ease implementor burden while keepin git simple and
> powerful for authors
>
> <shepazu>  <layer><circle id="c1" .../><circle id="c2"
> .../></layer><use xlink:href="#c1" .../><use xlink:href="#c2" .../>
>
> ag: a reference to that ISO spec (for full title, for the
> references)
> [21]http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_deta
> il.htm?csnumber=51502
>
> [21]
> http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=51502
>
>  ds: need to name this carefully, eg inkscape already has laters
> that are really more like groups
>
> costs CHF 380,00
>
> ed: so its good to gather use cases and requirements for z-index
>
> ag: does this impact the transforms UC&R?
>
> ed: should still examine the use case for it
>
> cl: good in the transforms UC&R to discuss how this is similar to,
> and different from, css 2.1 z-index
>
> <scribe>  ACTION: anthony draft use cases and requirements for
> z-index and compare and contrast with transforms and critically
> discuss with reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in
> [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03]
>
> <trackbot>  Created ACTION-2482 - Draft use cases and requirements
> for z-index and compare and contrast with transforms and critically
> discuss with reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [on Anthony Grasso
> - due 2009-03-05].
>
> tpac 2009
>
> <ed___>
> [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/017
> 4.html
>
> [23]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0174.html
>
>  cl: (explains tpac question - group attendance, timing, cost and
> location)
>
> ds: an advantage of the proposed location is silicon valley so more
> particiation from browser vendors like mozilla, applle etc
>
> [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JanMar/0059
>
> [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2009JanMar/0059
>
> ds: its one month after svg open in the same area
>
> cl: prefer the cost-effective location
>
> ds: perhaps shift svg open?
>
> cl: not clear that the tpac will happen. depends on how many groups
> confirm ... plh suggested a mini-tpac for browser-based technologies
> like html, css, svg, webapps and so forth
>
> ed: mini-tech plenary sounds good
>
> ds: downside is that we miss being able to meet with other groups
>
> [25]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/results
>
> [25] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34786/TPAC2009/results
>
> ds: 3d Transforms have an impact on level of detail
>
> ag: we need near and far clipping really ... this is 3d transforms
> applied toa 2d object then flattened to give a 2d result
>
> back to transforms
>
> oops, should have changed topic sorrry
>
> odf and svg
>
> ds: it would be a win if odf were to use svg natively. currently they
> don't. its being discussed in svg ig ... who is interested?
>
> ed: yes, sure
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
> [NEW] ACTION: anthony draft use cases and requirements for z-index
> and compare and contrast with transforms and critically discuss with
> reference to a neo-marxist dialictic [recorded in
> [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action03] [NEW]
> ACTION: anthony to check equations for blending and add informative
> ref to ISO 32000-1 [recorded in
> [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action01] [NEW]
> ACTION: doug to reply to Dean on 3d transforms [recorded in
> [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/02/26-svg-minutes.html#action02]
>
> [End of minutes]
>
Received on Friday, 27 February 2009 17:12:44 GMT

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