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Minutes, telcon Jan 19, 2009

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:28:08 +0100
To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <op.un0wkaevgeuyw5@macbooked.local>

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  http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html


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   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

19 Jan 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0050.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          heycam, anthony, ed

   Regrets
   Chair
          heycam

   Scribe
          erik

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]ISSUE-2201
         2. [6]ISSUE-2199
         3. [7]ISSUE-2103?
         4. [8]ISSUE-2203
         5. [9]www-svg feedback
         6. [10]animate-elem-82-t query,
            http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0026.ht
            ml
         7. [11]testsuite
     * [12]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2009

   <scribe> scribe: erik

   <scribe> scribeNick: ed

ISSUE-2201

   ISSUE-2201+

   ISSUE-2201?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2201 -- Return value of
   SVGAnimationElement.getStartTime unclear -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201

     [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2201

   <heycam>
   [14]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartT
   ime-return-value

     [14] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartTime-return-value

   CMC: wasn't sure if we decided if we return a value for the interval
   if it wasn't active at the moment (so the next interval)

   ED: just wondering which is more intuitive to authors

   AG: what does batik do?

   CMC: think something slightly different, actually returns NaN
   ... Opera currently will do the current interval whether if it's
   active or not
   ... if we returned the start time of the current interval if they're
   not active scripts could still compare that against the document
   time to determine if that's active or not
   ... don't mind either way

   AG: do we want to wait for jwatt to have his opinion?

   CMC: brian brought up the discussion originally
   ... he also asked on svg-developers if anyone used this, and what
   they thought
   ... no replies yet

   ED: it may be that sometimes it's tricky to time the call such that
   the getStartTime is when the interval is active, and you might
   expect to get something instead of an exception if the next interval
   is computed

   CMC: what about the duration one?

   ED: that's getSimpleDuration, so the name says pretty much what it
   does

   CMC: difficult do decide given that there's other timing things that
   are not exposed
   ... given that we can expose a bit more information by having it
   return the current interval and that you can compare against the
   documenttime, and that you can call it on beginevent, it should be
   safe to du the "current interval"

   AG: i'm fine with that, opera would have to change?

   ED: yes, to raise the exception

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam to change the
   [15]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartT
   ime-return-value erratum to use "current interval" and to move the
   item to proposed [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action01]

     [15] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartTime-return-value

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2407 - Change the
   [17]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartT
   ime-return-value erratum to use \"current interval\" and to move the
   item to proposed [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-01-26].

     [17] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartTime-return-value

ISSUE-2199

   ISSUE-2199?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2199 -- Underlying transform value erratum now
   conflicts with 1.2T -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2199

     [18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2199

   <heycam>
   [19]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-w
   ording-underlying-value

     [19] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-wording-underlying-value

   CMC: i've updated this to bring in the text in 1.2T
   ... copied the text and changed some links from SMIL to SMIL
   Animation
   ... I've brought it back to draft to review it again

   AG: doesn't look like a big behavioural change

   CMC: it's not really explicit in the text, but this text implies
   that when you're doing the scale transofrmation animation and the
   scale is zero (like in a to animation and you need to know the
   starting value)
   ... it's not explicit in tiny 1.2 either anymore
   ... we used to have a table
   ... but was removed before moving to CR
   ... based on comments from DOH

   AG: wasn't much in the spec before anyway

   CMC: yes, this was rather undefined
   ... no tests in the 1.1 testsuite that rely on the underlaying value

   AG: I've no problem changing that to proposed

   ED: one thing I was wondering about was if the references affects
   this at all

   CMC: the first link there is just describing the from-to calculation

   ED: right, this is probably close enough
   ... and good to use similar wording

   CMC: how do we do tests for errata items?

   AG: we should add tests in the 1.1F2/tests/svg directory going
   forward

   CMC: we'll have to release the testsuite again, right?

   AG: right

   CMC: so maybe we could publish the second edition spec along with a
   new snapshot of the testsuite

   <heycam>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2003/01/test-cases/text-intro-06-t.svg

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2003/01/test-cases/text-intro-06-t.svg

   ED: that sounds good yes

   CMC: the links should point to the right place though, they don't
   currently
   ... we should move the old tests over

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam to create a test for
   [21]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-w
   ording-underlying-value (check if we have a test for it in the 1.2T
   testsuite) and then move the erratum to proposed [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action02]

     [21] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-wording-underlying-value

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2408 - Create a test for
   [23]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-w
   ording-underlying-value (check if we have a test for it in the 1.2T
   testsuite) and then move the erratum to proposed [on Cameron
   McCormack - due 2009-01-26].

     [23] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-wording-underlying-value

ISSUE-2103?

   ISSUE-2103?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2103 -- i18n comment 3: Inline -progression typo --
   CLOSED

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2103

     [24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2103

ISSUE-2203

   ISSUE-2203?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2203 -- color-profile "local" IDL attribute erratum
   incorrect -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2203

     [25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2203

   <heycam>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090116032239.GB3580@arc.mcc.id.au

     [26] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090116032239.GB3580@arc.mcc.id.au

   CMC: this was raised by me a while ago
   ... I think i was incorrect in raising it
   ... it was for the IDL and there's an attribute named "_local"
   ... and "local" is a keyword in IDL
   ... so the underscore is actually needed
   ... like the comment said

   ED: ok, let's remove the errata item

   CMC: yes, that's probably safe to do

   <scribe> ACTION: AG to remove the color-profile "local" IDL
   attribute erratum for SVG 1.1 (addressing ISSUE-2203) [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2409 - Remove the color-profile \"local\"
   IDL attribute erratum for SVG 1.1 (addressing ISSUE-2203) [on
   Anthony Grasso - due 2009-01-26].

www-svg feedback

   <heycam>
   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html

     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html

   CMC: for these methods what happens if you call them before the
   timeline is started

   ED: so I think I was able to answer his first question about
   animationsPaused
   ... though we could possibly clarify it

   CMC: for beginElementAt
   ... we should add the offset to time zero I think

   AG: yes, makes it less confusing I think

   CMC: would be consistent to do it that way I think
   ... my suggestion would be if you did "beginElementAt(5)" it would
   be five seconds after the document timeline started, not from when
   it was called if it was called before the timeline started

   ED: that would probably be the most intuitive yes

   CMC: and then we'd get the timelineBegin from 1.2T if you wanted to
   start the timeline earlier

   [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0029.html

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0029.html

   CMC: it's a bit weird to fix up the starttime to be some negative
   time
   ... that's jwatts suggestion to run the animation before the
   timeline has started

   ED: the ElementTimeControl API is slightly different in 1.2T,
   something to note
   ... IMHO it's a bit strange to not look at 1.2T when implementing
   SVG SMIL support from scratch

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam to reply to
   [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html to
   say what we decided and that we've made erratum for it [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action04]

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2410 - Reply to
   [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html to
   say what we decided and that we've made erratum for it [on Cameron
   McCormack - due 2009-01-26].

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html

   <heycam>
   [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0026.html

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0026.html

animate-elem-82-t query,
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0026.html

     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0026.html

   CMC: brian points out that this test was copied over from 1.1, but
   it relied on the behaviour that we changed in 1.2T based on DOH's
   comments

   AG: this test has always had issues related to it
   ... was it even approved?

   CMC: does say so
   ... presumably we've changed the definition of paced to something
   we're happy with in tiny
   ... and this test should be removed and/or changed from the tiny 1.2
   testsuite at least
   ... but should we also look at changing what's in 1.1?
   ... or just leave it
   ... opera does the 1.2T way right?

   ED: since this issue went back and forth a number of times I'm not
   sure if we decided to hold off on changing anything

   CMC: this test in the 1.2T testsuite, we should eitehr change it or
   remove it
   ... only some subtests rely on the pacing, don't know which

   <scribe> ACTION: review 1.2T/tests/animate-elem-82-t.svg and make
   sure the positions are correct for the paced animations, and move
   the test back to draft/unapproved for now [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - review

   <scribe> ACTION: ED to review 1.2T/tests/animate-elem-82-t.svg and
   make sure the positions are correct for the paced animations, and
   move the test back to draft/unapproved for now [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action06]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2411 - Review
   1.2T/tests/animate-elem-82-t.svg and make sure the positions are
   correct for the paced animations, and move the test back to
   draft/unapproved for now [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-01-26].

testsuite

   AG: haven't started writing the xslt stylesheet yet

   ACTION-2385

   AG: most things can be copied across, but some empty fields need to
   be filled out

   CMC: so once that's done the testsuite will be in good shape for
   adding tests to it

   AG: you can do that now anyway, we can make the xsl look for certain
   elements and only change tose

   CMC: we haven't copied over the tests yet have we?

   AG: we did
   ... but they're still using the old template
   ... i've been organizing the last bits of the f2f, so I'll have more
   time this week to look at it
   ... if anyone wants to make a new test just use the new template

   <anthony> [37]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/templates/

     [37] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/templates/

   AG: there are some new fields
   ... the testdescription field allows references to the spec to be
   put in
   ... and which parts of the spec is being tested
   ... and because multiple parts can be tested you can put multiple
   references
   ... tehre's a field for pass criteria
   ... the approved attribute has been removed, it's only using status
   now

   CMC: does testdescription need to be there?

   AG: probably not
   ... will give an example

   <anthony>
   [38]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/text-tspan-02-b.sv
   g

     [38] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/text-tspan-02-b.svg

   ED: what about future specs, we might not have a full absolute link?

   AG: good point
   ... we could make an xslt for publication

   ED: we already put some spec links into the harness, based on naming
   convention

   AG: that's based on sectionnames, so with xlink:href you can point
   to a specific place in the spec

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: AG to remove the color-profile "local" IDL attribute
   erratum for SVG 1.1 (addressing ISSUE-2203) [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: ED to review 1.2T/tests/animate-elem-82-t.svg and make
   sure the positions are correct for the paced animations, and move
   the test back to draft/unapproved for now [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam to change the
   [41]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartT
   ime-return-value erratum to use "current interval" and to move the
   item to proposed [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam to create a test for
   [43]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-w
   ording-underlying-value (check if we have a test for it in the 1.2T
   testsuite) and then move the erratum to proposed [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam to reply to
   [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html to
   say what we decided and that we've made erratum for it [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: review 1.2T/tests/animate-elem-82-t.svg and make sure
   the positions are correct for the paced animations, and move the
   test back to draft/unapproved for now [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/19-svg-minutes.html#action05]

     [41] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#getStartTime-return-value
     [43] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#cleanup-wording-underlying-value
     [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Jan/0024.html

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 19 January 2009 21:28:52 GMT

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