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Minutes, Raleigh F2F 2009 day 4

From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:38:11 +1000
To: public-svg-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <20090613003811.GF27596@arc.mcc.id.au>
IRC log from day 4 of the Raleigh F2F:

  http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc

We mostly worked on actions that day.  Here’s the text copy for tracker:

IRC log of svg on 2009-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:20 [RRSAgent]
    RRSAgent has joined #svg
13:55:20 [RRSAgent]
    logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc
13:55:22 [trackbot]
    RRSAgent, make logs public
13:55:22 [Zakim]
    Zakim has joined #svg
13:55:24 [trackbot]
    Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
13:55:24 [Zakim]
    I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:55:25 [trackbot]
    Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
13:55:25 [trackbot]
    Date: 11 June 2009
13:55:33 [heycam]
    Chair: Erik
13:55:53 [ed]
    scribeNick: ed
13:56:04 [ed]
    Topic: ACTION-2523
13:56:10 [ed]
    ACTION-2523?
13:56:10 [trackbot]
    ACTION-2523 -- Cameron McCormack to add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it -- due 2009-04-27 -- OPEN
13:56:10 [trackbot]
    http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2523
13:56:31 [ed]
    CM: in the context of loosening the content model of element with child element orderings
13:56:57 [ed]
    ...then I got this action to make it so that the content model allows title anywhere, but that if it's not the first child elm then it doesn't need to render it
13:57:02 [ChrisL]
    ChrisL has joined #svg
13:57:04 [ed]
    ...but I don't like this option
13:57:34 [ed]
    ...I'd rather if you are going to render it then it has to be the first child
13:57:41 [ChrisL]
    rrsagent, here
13:57:41 [RRSAgent]
    See http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc#T13-57-41
13:57:50 [ed]
    ...either that or make the first title element whereever it is rendered
13:58:09 [ChrisL]
    zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
13:58:09 [Zakim]
    ok, ChrisL
13:58:18 [ed]
    JW: too much overhead with rendering titles that aren't first child
13:59:03 [ed]
    DS: could handle it internally with finding the title during parsing, then link it to the parent element
13:59:26 [ed]
    CM: happy to require it to be the first child
13:59:43 [ed]
    ...in tiny the restriction was loosened to sya that it can be anywhere
13:59:46 [ed]
    DS: i prefer that
14:00:03 [ed]
    CL: it's vague as to what it can do with the title
14:00:10 [ed]
    ...tooltip or whatever
14:00:30 [ed]
    DS: UA:s could optionally ignore the title if it's not the first element
14:00:54 [ed]
    ...I would like ppl to use title, and to tell UAs how to deal with title
14:01:06 [ed]
    CL: should put it as authoring advice then
14:01:17 [ed]
    ...should put it as first child
14:02:04 [ed]
    ...the vague thing caused people to have very short title, beause some UAs do show it as tooltips
14:02:18 [ed]
    (discussion on title and tooltip elements)
14:02:47 [ed]
    DS: xlink:title is sometimes used too
14:03:14 [ed]
    CM: if you put it as a first child you might still not get it as a tooltip
14:03:30 [ed]
    CL: CGM has reliable tooltip behavior
14:05:11 [ed]
    (discussion on adding wikipage for tooltip)
14:05:37 [ed]
    DS: the advice we give for accessibility and tooltips isn't adequate
14:06:07 [ChrisL]
    which is why we were going to add an explicity tooltip element in 1.2F, because that was an area where CGM has functionality that we don't
14:10:29 [ed]
    DS: don't like the feature being optional
14:10:33 [ChrisL]
    this relates to ACTION-2523
14:10:34 [ed]
    ...want to know that I have tooltips
14:11:42 [ed]
    ...have a library that makes js tooltips, but when UAs to native tooltips it overlaps the jstooltip
14:12:04 [ed]
    ...roles have been discussed in this context
14:12:41 [ed]
    (discussion on role=tooltip and ARIA)
14:13:04 [ed]
    CM: probably role is different from what you want
14:13:07 [ed]
    DS: disagree
14:13:22 [ed]
    CL: right, you don't know if it's going to appear or not
14:13:51 [ChrisL]
    but you could use title[role=tooltip] display: none to switch off tooltips
14:13:53 [ed]
    CM: the AT vendors are going to interpret role differently from what you mean
14:14:32 [ed]
    DS: if we make something new and say type="tooltip" authors will use that
14:14:49 [ed]
    ...as far as the author is concerned they're done, but the AT won't know that
14:14:59 [ed]
    ...one more thing the AT has to do
14:15:24 [ed]
    ...even text elements and other things are not accessible in current ATs
14:15:31 [ed]
    ...in svg
14:17:23 [ChrisL]
    quote "Obviously there�s nothing you can do to stop the default behaviour of standards compliant browsers regarding rendering of title attributes, so when leaving your cursor on my method for too long, the default browser behaviour will overlay the generated content CSS effect"
14:17:29 [ChrisL]
    http://www.css3.info/tooltips-with-css3/
14:17:37 [ed]
    JW: you should be able to disable the default behaviour
14:17:42 [ed]
    ...for tooltips
14:18:22 [ed]
    CL: we should have either made a real tooltip, or not have had this vague language in the spec for how to use title
14:20:23 [ed]
    ....regarding the specific action
14:20:30 [ed]
    ...doesn't add anything
14:21:03 [ed]
    ...there's a small useful bit in the note
14:21:07 [ed]
    ...about the DTD
14:22:38 [ed]
    CM: sometimes I've wanted a rich graphical tooltip, you can do it already, but an easier way to do it
14:23:35 [ed]
    DS: we could add the tooltip element again
14:23:49 [ed]
    ...the role of a tooltip is different from the role of a title
14:30:20 [anthony]
    ACTION-2385?
14:30:20 [trackbot]
    ACTION-2385 -- Anthony Grasso to make an XSLT to change the template of the 1.1 tests to the new one -- due 2008-12-25 -- OPEN
14:30:20 [trackbot]
    http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2385
14:31:38 [anthony]
    Dudes, I've finished the XSLT for this action. Just need to put the finishing touches on the scrip to run it all
14:34:05 [ChrisL]
    ChrisL has joined #svg
15:57:24 [ChrisL]
    http://www.oxygenxml.com/
15:58:30 [heycam]
    thanks anthony
15:59:23 [heycam]
    close ACTION-2523
15:59:23 [trackbot]
    ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it closed
16:31:23 [heycam]
    action: cameron add wording explaining how the dtd is meant to be used
16:31:24 [trackbot]
    Created ACTION-2614 - Add wording explaining how the dtd is meant to be used [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-06-18].
19:01:48 [RRSAgent]
    RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:01:48 [RRSAgent]
    logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/11-svg-irc
20:09:55 [heycam]
    issue-2210?
20:09:55 [trackbot]
    ISSUE-2210 -- Define liveness of SVGTransform.matrix -- RAISED
20:09:55 [trackbot]
    http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2210
20:47:38 [heycam]
    heycam has joined #svg
21:58:10 [Zakim]
    ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
22:12:50 [Zakim]
    Zakim has left #svg

-- 
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Saturday, 13 June 2009 00:38:58 GMT

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