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Minutes, Monday 20 April 2009 SVG WG telcon

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:23:47 +1000
Message-ID: <49EC3113.3040506@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: public-svg-wg@w3.org

http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html

---


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

20 Apr 2009

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009AprJun/0046.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], anthony, ed_, +1.339.524.aaaa,
           ChrisL

    Regrets
    Chair
           Cameron

    Scribe
           anthony

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]1.2T list-of-string data type issue
          2. [6]Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox
          3. [7]1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again)
          4. [8]Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again)
          5. [9]SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile"
             keyword
          6. [10]SVG 1.1 Second Edition update
          7. [11]ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference
          8. [12]Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG
             Tiny 1.2
          9. [13]Allowable presentation attributes
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 20 April 2009

    <scribe> Scribe: anthony

1.2T list-of-string data type issue

    <heycam>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.mon
    ash.edu.au

      [15] 
http://www.w3.org/mid/20090408054239.GA31922@bowman.infotech.monash.edu.au

    CM: Pointing out there's a problem with list-of-strings

    <ChrisL> need to disallow spaces in strings

    CM: I have some overdue action in looking at this syntax
    ... I can solve this at the same time

    CL: Do you say any character minus the following?
    ... for Unicode
    ... I need to have a string that doesn't have commas?
    ... is that what I wanted for colour profiles?

    ED: I think so

    <heycam> SpacelessAndCommalessValues ::= [^, ]*

    ED: I'm not sure

    <heycam> that's valid EBNF afaik

    <ChrisL> cheers

    ED: You probably want to escape those

    DS: There are also certain values
    ... because we don't control them
    ... they have to be space separated

    CL: We should probably disallow them
    ... instead of allowing them
    ... because if we move to separated lists, we don't what to end up
    with commas
    ... in the middle of a string

    DS: We were moving towards having commas

    CL: For Tiny we should tighten it to disallow commas in the middle
    of a string
    ... and we have semicolons?
    ... maybe we should disallow those?

    DS: I think they are already disallowed?

    <ChrisL> lists of lists

    CL: I thought we had list of lists that used semicolons?

    CM: List of points for a the animation attributes

    CL: Any syntactic characters we shouldn't allow
    ... maybe it's too much

    CM: So I'll look at cleaning that up when I get to the action
    ... The second part of the email asks about allow listing content
    types

    CL: Some content types like video audio take the codec as the
    content type
    ... so we do need to be able to separate them

    DS: Like semicolon

    CM: When writing these media types without parameters you could
    probably do it without spaces

    DS: I think people are likely to put a space in

    <ChrisL> [16]http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html WAVE
    and AVI Codec Registries

      [16] http://www.rfc-ref.org/RFC-TEXTS/2361/index.html

    CM: I don't think it's likely we can put it all in one list type

    DS: We should document these cases

    AG: Wiki them

    CM: So I'll look into that at the same time

    CL: The examples in the RFC do include space
    ... but after the semicolon in all the examples

    CM: They might allow all sorts of things inside quotes

    <ChrisL> "Video codecs within the AVI Registry are identified by AVI
    Codec IDs.

    <ChrisL> The AVI Codec ID value is a FourCC encoding. A FourCC is
    32-bits long

    <ChrisL> and represents a (case-sensitive) four-character (i.e.,
    ASCII) code

    <ChrisL> value. These codecs may be referenced within the IANA
    namespace as

    <ChrisL> "video/vnd.avi; codec=XXX", where XXX represents a valid
    AVI Codec ID

    <ChrisL> (e.g., the WAVE Format ID of "SCRN" is referenced within
    the IANA

    <ChrisL> namespace by "video/vnd.avi; codec=SCRN").

    <ChrisL> "

    CL: I think that means it's for ASCII characters
    ... those ones

    CM: Ok, I'll reply to the email and tell Peter we will deal with it
    in due course

Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox

    <heycam>
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Apr/0051.html

    CL: We should clearly test when the viewBox doesn't start with 0 0
    ... I have done markers like this
    ... which are centered on the origin
    ... but you have set the clipping

    ED: I discussed this with JWatt
    ... and it's suppose to clip to View Port
    ... Opera and FireFox are currently clipping to the viewBox
    ... not the View Port

    <ChrisL> which is wrong

    CM: So the difference being aspect ratio conversion

    ED: The View Port is typically bigger than the viewBox
    ... I did write up a couple of test cases
    ... JWatt had one as well
    ... I could try to convert that to the W3C template
    ... and commit those

    CL: We could duplicate the test and add his modification

    CM: Is there any problem with just taking the test?

    CL: He can't modify the test
    ... we should keep paint-marker-01f
    ... duplicate it and add changes

    <shepazu> [18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax

      [18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/List_Syntax

1.2T list-of-string data type issue (again)

    DS: In CSS they have rules for spaces

    CL: What they say in CSS that is if you don't quote multiple spaces
    it will collaps it

    DS: Could we say that for our lists that if you want to have
    characters that are commas
    ... colons or spaces you have to quote the string?

    CM: You mean double quotes?

    DS: Double or single

    CM: Backslash
    ... double quotes could be away around that
    ... we could have a different type of list of strings that allows
    quotes around values
    ... it might be that the more restrictive types for the URIs don't
    need the quotes
    ... maybe that would be the extent of the lists

Proposed test for markers: offset viewBox (again)

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add
    Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge
    [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2519 - Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f
    and add Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to
    Jorge [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-04-27].

    SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword

SVG 1.1 Test suite: (somehow unexpected) "mobile" keyword

    CM: Don't know exactly what's being pointed out - because I haven't
    read it yet

    <ChrisL>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/f
    ull-color-prof-01-f.html

      [20] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20061213/htmlObjectHarness/full-color-prof-01-f.html

    CL: If you look at that
    ... and view source
    ... has "<meta name="keywords" content="W3C SVG 1.1 Test Suite
    testsuite mobile"/>"
    ... The way around it is to remove the word mobile

    ED: I think the script that generates the harness has two options

    <ChrisL> just remove the word "mobile" next time we regenerate the
    tests

    CL: Next time we refresh it we will take the word out

    <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we
    will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
    [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2520 - Reply to Helder's email saying that
    we will change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
    [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-04-27].

SVG 1.1 Second Edition update

    [22]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/

      [22] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/

    CL: The link doesn't have all the files needed

    CM: Not all the chapters are being built yet
    ... I wanted to point out
    ... that I've updated the list of editors
    ... the criteria I used was
    ... include the former editors, people that have added errata text,
    and people that are editing the spec files
    ... Oliver has made an errata entry
    ... so I thought that was a reasonable criteria for adding editors
    to the 1.1F 2nd spec

    <heycam> that's here:
    [23]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/

      [23] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/

    JW: I''m fine with being added

    <ChrisL> [24]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html

      [24] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/master/types.html

    CL: In the data types chapter
    ... would you mind sorting that so the list of types are in
    alphabetical order
    ... like they are in Tiny 1.2

    AG: That should definitely be changed

    <scribe> ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd
    so that they are alphabetical [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2521 - Change the order of the types in
    1.1F 2nd so that they are alphabetical [on Chris Lilley - due
    2009-04-27].

    <heycam>
    [26]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDat
    aTypes isn't ordered

      [26] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/types.html#BasicDataTypes

    CM: What I've plan to do is once the rest of chapters are being
    generated properly
    ... I'll do some diffs with the original 1.1F
    ... and then we can start putting in the Errata

    DS: So the thing that Chris is doing is changing the RNG or the
    Output?

    CL: I'm changing the master types.html

    DS: Just wanted to make sure changes wouldn't be overridden

    CM: Perhaps I'll ping Oliver and see if cares about the editors list

ISSUE-2266: Correct Role Module Reference

    ISSUE-2266?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2266 -- Correct Role Module Reference -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266

      [27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2266

    DS: Simply a typo
    ... just needs to be changed

    CL: Are you going to fix it then?

    DS: I could do
    ... do we need to issue an errata for this?

    CL: I believe so

    CM: Hearing no objections we should issue an errata

    RESOLUTION: We will create an errata for ISSUE-2266

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266
    [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2522 - Create an errata to address
    ISSUE-2266 [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-04-27].

Child element order differences between SVG 1.1 and SVG Tiny 1.2

    [29]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au

      [29] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417053216.GE9802@arc.mcc.id.au

    CM: Pointing out that in 1.1 there is some restriction in element
    order that doesn't exist in 1.2T

    CL: Over time we thought it was good practice to have those things
    at the top
    ... there is not practical draw back to having a description at the
    end for example
    ... if we require it to be at the beginning then I think you'll find
    UAs will allow it to go anywhere

    ED: I don't mind removing the restriction in the DTD
    ... as long as the spec says it's better to put it at the top

    DS: I think it's reasonable to tell people that as a practice
    ... put it at the top
    ... because it helps for readability
    ... but doesn't effect the processing
    ... do we say what happens if we have more than one title or
    description?

    ED: Yes we do

    <ed_>
    [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElemen
    ts

      [30] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements

    ED: [reads out part of spec]

    JW: Could we strongly encourage that it should be the first child
    elements of the elements it's the title of?

    CL: Why do you think it's good to have it at the top?

    JW: When used as a tool tip. You have your target of the mouse over,
    you're basically looking up the all the elements of the parent to
    ... find the title

    CL: Some UAs might be impacted
    ... they could construct a pointer to it when they see it, rather
    than do tree manipulation for every mouse over

    CM: So if the title is not the first child then you definitely wont
    show the tool tip?

    JW: There issues as some of it is implemented in Java script
    ... and there would be problems changing it

    CM: Would you want the text to say that if it's not the first child
    then the UA doesn't have to render it?

    DS: We went in that direction in Tiny 1.2

    CL: We started moving towards moving to have a tooltip element in
    Full 1.2

    DS: Anthony suggested to have an role on title to indicate what the
    title did
    ... Can't remember if it was put in there as an example in the spec

    <ChrisL> close ACTION-2521

    <trackbot> ACTION-2521 Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so
    that they are alphabetical closed

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if
    title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render
    it [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2523 - Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that
    if title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally
    render it [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].

    <shepazu> [[In order to honor authorial intent, it is strongly
    recommended that when, and only when, the appropriate 'role'
    attribute value is present, user agents display the text content of
    the applicable 'title' and 'desc' elements in a highly visible
    manner supported by the user agent, such as in a tooltip or status
    bar, when the pointing device is hovered over the described element
    or elements, or when the described element is given focus (e.g.,
    through keyboard or

    <heycam> ACTION-2523: and remove the restriction on child element
    order from the DTD

    <trackbot> ACTION-2523 Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if title
    is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render it
    notes added

    CM: Something you might want to port back to 1.1?

    DS: Seems relevant
    ... but 1.1 doesn't have the role attribute

Allowable presentation attributes

    <heycam>
    [32]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au

      [32] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090417055354.GF9802@arc.mcc.id.au

    CM: In Full 1.1 they are limited

    CL: People argued that the DTD should be used to validate properties
    on an element
    ... I think that any property should be able to placed on any
    element

    DS: Was this fixed in 1.2T?

    CL: Yes

    DS: I would consider it to be a feature of a validator that which
    properties don't apply to the element

    CL: To my mind that's not a validator but an optimiser
    ... based what is actually there
    ... separate for validation
    ... it's an authoring tool

    <shepazu> [33]https://launchpad.net/scour

      [33] https://launchpad.net/scour

    CM: Couple of questions about Tiny
    ... I think at one point we were toying with the idea that display
    controlled how title was used
    ... I'm not sure if it was because of that
    ... the media properties were put on those
    ... it doesn't seem very useful

    CL: Yes, it doesn't seem very useful

    CM: Could issue an errata

    CL: I don't really have an opion
    ... it doesn't really hurt, but at the same time it's not a good
    idea

    CM: The next question I have is why are only media properties
    allowed on <image>
    ... Should we issue an errata?

    <ChrisL> i hadn't really twigged before that 'media' was all
    properties that don't conflict with smil "fill"

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the
    questions in the email sent [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2524 - Create an errata to address the
    questions in the email sent [on Cameron McCormack - due 2009-04-27].

    <shepazu> [35]http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html

      [35] http://www.schepers.cc/w3c/svg/params/ref.html

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Reply to Helder's email saying that we will
    change the name the next time the test suite is regenerated
    [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Add wording to Full 1.1 saying that if
    title is not the first child element that UAs can optionally render
    it [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Create an errata to address the questions
    in the email sent [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Chris to Change the order of the types in 1.1F 2nd so
    that they are alphabetical [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to Create an errata to address ISSUE-2266
    [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Duplicate the test paint-marker-01f and add
    Jorge Stolfi's suggested changes to the test. Reply back to Jorge
    [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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