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Minutes, SVG telcon Monday 17 November 2008

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:10:30 +1100
Message-ID: <492B1846.5040908@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>

http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html

---

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

24 Nov 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0396.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Shepazu, heycam, anthony, ed, Shepazu.a

    Regrets
           CL

    Chair
           Erik

    Scribe
           anthony

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Upcomming F2F meetings
          2. [6]HTML and SVG coordination
          3. [7]Errata 1.1
          4. [8]ISSUE-2185
          5. [9]Errata items
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2008

    <scribe> scribe: anthony

Upcomming F2F meetings

    ED: I saw that it was discussed at the last telcon
    ... is there a registration page up for it?

    DS: No, but I'll make one up now

    ED: For the next F2F after that we are planning on having it in
    France?

    DS: Raliegh
    ... I'm going to Web Directions North in the first week of Feb

    <shepazu> [11]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/SydneyF2F2009/

    DS: Registration link is there, adding it to the wiki page now

HTML and SVG coordination

    ED: We did start some discussion at the TPAC with the HTML WG
    ... we decided a number of goals for SVG inside of HTML5
    ... probably didn't finish the discussion

    DS: I think we should make this a priority
    ... at the F2F in short the SVG WG acknowledged that it is desirable
    to have error correction
    ... SVG should be in XML syntax and if the content creator doesn't
    make it in that syntax then error
    ... correction is applied

    CM: So it's a question of a validity
    ... so I think it HTML they have various things that are parsing
    errors that get corrected

    DS: The distinction is subtle but I'd like wording saying that the
    SVG is not correct but it will be corrected
    ... E.g. There are certain elements that can't be left open in HTML5
    ... We do see some benefit of this, but it should be serialised as
    XML
    ... In HTML5 attribute values don't have quotes and this is allowed.
    But in SVG this is reported as an error
    ... but in HTML5 this can be error corrected

    CM: So there was in principle support for the that view of document
    validity and error correction?

    DS: There should be no white list of SVG elements, any SVG element
    that is legal in SVG should be allowed
    ... And it doesn't matter what language we are putting in there. The
    author shouldn't have to do anything special when they are
    ... putting in SVG
    ... so the white list only be that of what is supported by
    implementations rather than a specification
    ... I think the parser requires a list of element stings
    ... we may need to make some distinction about how SVG is treated
    ... there were conflicts in names "a" element, "textArea", "font",
    "metadata" they were essentially black listed
    ... they shouldn't be black listed or white listed
    ... what are the next steps we need to take?

    CM: Someone should write up the scheme you described?

    DS: I need to go back and read Ian's proposal
    ... he says exactly how it needs to be parsed, but if an
    implementation wants to parse it differently
    ... then this should be allowed
    ... it shouldn't say that you can't

    CM: You wouldn't want those two different ways to result in
    different output

    DS: Ideally no
    ... I guess you have a point

    CM: Uniform parsing is one of the requirements of HTML5

    ED: Do we need to talk to the HTML Working Group again regarding the
    goals?
    ... I'm wondering if Ian has everything he has to make a new
    proposal?
    ... or if he needs more info

    DS: We should probably come back with an email saying these are the
    goals we agreed to at TPAC
    ... we'd like to move forward with this
    ... perhaps we should have a conversation on our email list first

    ED: Sure, I can do that

    DS: We had some proposals some went down to the parser level. We
    have said that the HTML parser can be used to parse SVG
    ... so it should be easier to say these are the goals that should be
    met
    ... Simply putting it in the spec may not be good enough. We need to
    consider the implications of what's in there.
    ... Compared to SVG in strict XML

    ED: I will send an email out about this
    ... and try to collect the goals we decided on

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to Send an email to the SVG Working Group
    regarding the goals that were decided on at TPAC for SVG in HTML
    [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2355 - Send an email to the SVG Working
    Group regarding the goals that were decided on at TPAC for SVG in
    HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-12-01].

Errata 1.1

    ED: Has something been done about this?

    AG: I had an action to split out the 1.1
    ... but I haven't gotten around to doing this

    ED: I think it would be helpful to check in what's been done on 1.1
    2nd edition

    [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml

    Undefined Behaviour with Filters

    [14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#undefined-behaviour-with-filters

      [14] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#undefined-behaviour-with-filters

    ED: It's about 8 years old
    ... His example is about making something less transparent, why not
    use opacity? Or am I missing something

    DS: I think we should skip this one
    ... and see if we can solve this in the next filters module
    ... perhaps we can raise an issue on the filters module for this

    CM: I think he's saying that the initial canvas is undefined
    ... but I think that it might be

    <shepazu> ISSUE-2185?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-2185 -- Update SVG 1.2 Tiny to account for the
    change in the default overflow property in SVG 1.1 -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2185

      [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2185

ISSUE-2185

    DS: The paragraph in question is the last one in 7.10

    <shepazu>
    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/034
    4.html

      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0344.html

    DS: it seemed to me that we should correct this to match the
    behaviour we are allowing which is here
    ... that overflow is only hidden for things that are not root
    ... I think that was for SVG elements only

    <ed> the <svg> element

    DS: I thought they were talking about the root element

    ED: That's at least how I understood the elemail from David H
    ... I guess we could do some slight rewording if you want

    DS: Doesn't it contradict

    ED: It's still informative

    DS: We could say that this paragraph is misinformative (or possibly
    disinformative) =P

    <shepazu> s/missinformative/misinformative (or possibly
    disinformative)/

    DS: We could add

    <shepazu> [[ since the initial value for the 'overflow' property is
    hidden for non-root elements that establish viewports ([SVG11],
    section 14.3.3). ]]

    DS: That would satisfy me
    ... and that would accurately describe what we are doing for SVG 1.1

    CM: I don't know if saying initial value is exactly right

    <ed>
    [17]http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVG11-20030114/masking.html#Overfl
    owProperty

      [17] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-SVG11-20030114/masking.html#OverflowProperty

    CM: I think the property only has one initial value

    ED: Overflow is pretty verbose
    ... different initial values depending on the element

    DS: We probably should try to correct more than we want to at this
    time
    ... this will change eventually

    Resolution: We will change the informative section 7.10 to match the
    wording of the SVG 1.1 errata

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to Make the change as agreed to for ISSUE-2185
    [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2356 - Make the change as agreed to for
    ISSUE-2185 [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-01].

    DS: As issues come in for spelling and typos, I am correcting them
    in Master, but not in the Published (PR) draft
    ... whenever we go to Rec they will appear in it

    <ed>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#script_animatable_xlink_href

      [19] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#script_animatable_xlink_href

Errata items

    ED: This one is about xlink:href is animatable
    ... in Tiny 1.2 we say it can't be

    CM: Is this because xlink:href is defined one place?

    ED: It could be
    ... I think some have it in the attribute list

    CM: It's mentioned in "use" for example
    ... maybe it should be something we have for Core
    ... list the attributes for each element def

    DS: I already raised an issue on that already
    ... the build script should build it form the schema

    ED: I would to move this errata item to proposed

    AG: I don't have any problems with this one

    Resolution: We will move the Errata item "Clarify if xlink:href on
    <script> elements is animatable or not" to proposed

    [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#attribute-index

      [20] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#attribute-index

    AG: This one looks complete

    CM: I wrote the item but I remember at one point Chris had an action
    to check it

    AG: I'm ok with this

    ED: Me too

    Resolution: We will move the Errata item "Incorrect entries in the
    attribute index" to proposed status

    <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to Change the status on the errata times as
    per the resolution [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2357 - Change the status on the errata
    times as per the resolution [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-12-01].

    [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#svgzoomevent-interface

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgzoomevent-interface

    ED: The "SVGZoomEvent - Interface" seems to be ok to me
    ... just checking Tiny now

    CM: It's just a basic event

    ED: And in 1.1 it is UIEvent
    ... so that wouldn't affect Tiny at all

    CM: Maybe Tiny must of changed from UIEvent to BasicEvent at some
    point
    ... should someone take Andrew's action to check it out?

    ED: I'm just wondering if there is anything to check out
    ... we can see there is no SVGZoomEvent in Tiny
    ... any change we make in 1.1 unless we make it incompatible in some
    way should be fine
    ... I don't think removing some of those interface events will
    effect anything
    ... I'm not sure in which circumstance they will be applicable
    anyway

    CM: Unless you had some sort of interaction where you can click to
    zoom
    ... should we just close this action and accept this?

    ED: Would be fine with me at least

    AG: I can't edit the action

    DS: Old tracker is not working

    AG: I'll edit the errata to say the action is closed
    ... and move it to proposed if there are no objections

    ED: Just wondering if we can change the status of the next one after
    that
    ... it seems to have a resolution

    AG: And same with the one after that

    ED: We can postpone this for Thursday

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to Change the status on the errata times as
    per the resolution [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to Make the change as agreed to for ISSUE-2185
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to Send an email to the SVG Working Group
    regarding the goals that were decided on at TPAC for SVG in HTML
    [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version 1.133
     ([27]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/11/24 21:06:07 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Check for newer version at [28]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
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      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/error correction/that view of document validity and error
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Succeeded: s/missinformative/misinformative (or possibly disinformative
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FAILED: s/missinformative/misinformative (or possibly disinformative)/
Succeeded: s/... I don't know if/CM: I don't know if/
Succeeded: s/it/the action/
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: Shepazu, heycam, anthony, ed, Shepazu.a
Present: Shepazu heycam anthony ed Shepazu.a
Regrets: CL
Agenda: [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDe
c/0396.html
Found Date: 24 Nov 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony doug erik

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0396.html
      [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/24-svg-minutes.html

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      [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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