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Minutes, SVG telcon Thursday 12 June 2008

From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:12:19 +1000
Message-ID: <485112A3.5010100@cisra.canon.com.au>
To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>

http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html

---


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

12 Jun 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0125.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ed, anthony, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.536.aaaa, [IPcaller],
           heycam

    Regrets
           Andrew, Emmons

    Chair
           Erik Dahlstrom

    Scribe
           anthony

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Nuremberg F2F (updated)
          2. [6]1.2 Testsuite
          3. [7]SVG in HTML (cont.)
          4. [8]Pending errata items
          5. [9]"keep <script> elements running only once"
          6. [10]ARIA in SVG
          7. [11]www-svg feedback
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 12 June 2008

    <ed> hmm...

    <shepazu> hmmm

    <shepazu> I didn't

    <shepazu> ooops... maybe I didn't send out the correction?

    <shepazu> guess so

    <scribe> Scribe: anthony

    <leonardr> (I am STILL waiting for an operator to get me into the
    system :(

Nuremberg F2F (updated)

    <ed> [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008

    ED: I got some information from Alex
    ... I added some information to me the meeting wiki page
    ... Alex said he'd find out more info for network, restaurants etc

    <ed> [14]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/

    ED: I've also opened up the attendance page
    ... most of the information has been taken from the SVG Open travel
    website

1.2 Testsuite

    AG: I've generated the new testsuite
    ... which includes the minor Erik made
    ... I omit three tests
    ... two of them had zero sided reference images
    ... struct-use-06-t, struct-use-07-t
    ... and the third test I omitted is
    ... struct-common-201-t-debug

    ED: with the struct-use ones couldn't we generate the reference
    images for them

    AG: So they were but they had zero sized reference images
    ... I'm guessing this is still a beta release so we can sort those
    out next

    ED: I see both still in draft
    ... So the next step is for Doug to push the changes out so they
    become public

    DS: I will try to do that today or tomorrow

    ED: I guess we should make it known that we published an updated
    version of the test suite
    ... might want to make the list of issues that's on the wiki known

    AG: I agree

    <ed>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#23_Ma
    y_2008

      [15] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#23_May_2008

    <ed>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/View_the_list_of_known_is
    sues

      [16] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/View_the_list_of_known_issues

    AG: Looks to me some of the require minimal effort to fix

    ED: Yes some of them could have images patches for batik to render
    or png
    ... the revision numbers could be a bit tedious

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to publish the SVG test suite, announce its
    publication and the list of known issues [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2062 - Publish the SVG test suite,
    announce its publication and the list of known issues [on Doug
    Schepers - due 2008-06-19].

SVG in HTML (cont.)

    DS: We should finalise this and get it out into the public fairly
    soon

    ED: I was just wondering if there was something left for us to
    discuss about the mail reply from last time
    ... just wondering about results and the rework

    AG: So I've started converting the slides to HTML
    ... just haven't finished yet
    ... where should I commit it

    DS: Contact me when you're ready and I'll try to have the structure
    done for CVS

    ED: We can expect to have it in CVS by next week

    AG: For sure

Pending errata items

    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/006
    9.html

      [18] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0069.html

    ED: We should go through these
    ... First one is about HKern
    ... it's a very minor change
    ... changing the grammar for the u2 attribute

    [19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#hkern_u2_definition_typo

      [19] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#hkern_u2_definition_typo

    ED: I think most implementations don't treat it as a number
    ... it is Category 3 because it may change stuff

    AG: I don't have any problems with it

    CM: I agree

    RESOLUTION: We will move the hkern_u2_definition_typo to proposed
    status

    <ed>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications

      [20] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications

    ED: The next one is changing what exceptions we throw
    ... I also found after writing this
    ... it's kind of strange
    ... we have parameters that are unsigned long but for negative
    numbers they throw exceptions

    CM: Seems like an easy thing to change while we are at it
    ... We should remove the exception

    <ed>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#InterfaceSVGTextContentElem
    ent

      [21] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#InterfaceSVGTextContentElement

    ED: For the text content element they all take unsigned long

    CM: For the text interface they take character indexs
    ... they take unsigned

    AG: conclusion

    CM: Remove the exception

    ED: So what ways is a negative value converted?
    ... guess it would depend on the unsigned long
    ... It's fine with me

    AG: Are you going to make that change as part of the errata change?

    ED: Sure I can do it
    ... we should probably change all the text methods as well
    ... so in that case we should keep it in draft for now
    ... so this will be part of ACTION-2010

    <ed>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xm
    l#value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax

    ED: So next one is key spline syntax
    ... action is closed
    ... but open in the errata file

    AG: It doesn't have a category either

    ED: It's more a clarification
    ... I think this is a category 2 because it doesn't impact
    conformance
    ... the conformance is already in SMIL

    AG: So I can add the category 2 and close the action item

    RESOLUTION: Pending the changes to the
    value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax we will move this errata item to
    proposed status

"keep <script> elements running only once"

    ED: This was a thread on the group list

    CM: This is me pointing out what Tiny says about script elements
    ... it's a bit different to what HTML says
    ... FF and Opera appear to be doing what HTML says
    ... even for SVG

    DS: Is that the desired behavior

    CM: I suspect it's that way because that's how things work in HTML
    ... legacy reasons
    ... I don't see any issues for using on or the other
    ... maybe if you wanted to reuse the same script element multiple
    times then you want to choose the SVG way
    ... I think it's a pretty minor thing
    ... not really stopping you from doing anything
    ... the two major desktop browsers do it that way

    ED: I would like to do it the same as HTML
    ... I would favor us changing it the Tiny spec
    ... we don't have any test cases on it
    ... I'd be surprised if people are relying on it

    CM: Or if people are relying on it they are probably relying on it
    working on the HTML way

    DS: I'm trying to think of a reason to do it
    ... yes we should align
    ... either SVG or HTML
    ... there are some issues in which HTML should change, this isn't
    one of them

    CM: I think I wouldn't be surprised if there was HTML stuff on it
    out there that relied on it
    ... working that way

    DS: I'm fine with it changing

    ED: Sounds like we all agree to have the spec changed

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to fix the spec by aligning the script
    element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2063 - Fix the spec by aligning the script
    element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [on Cameron
    McCormack - due 2008-06-19].

ARIA in SVG

    DS: Gives some background of ARIA
    ... There was a big discussion of the syntax that would be used in
    HTML and SVG for ARIA
    ... we didn't like it
    ... but we agreed to use the aria- syntax

    CM: From reading things I think that's what I think everyone agreed
    on

    ED: That's what we agreed on

    DS: So since that time, on the HTML list and on the appropriate WAI
    list
    ... there has been a lot of debate about it and on the TAG
    ... tried to push the name spaces syntax
    ... but if you recall
    ... after you agreed to it
    ... it was implemented in all 4 browsers some of which are SVG user
    agents
    ... this was the 'aria-*' syntax implementation
    ... So that TAG tried push name spaces syntax
    ... and there has been push back from WAI
    ... somehow it wasn't conveyed to WAI that this is what the SVG WG
    had agreed on
    ... I'd like to confirm that we agreed to the "aria-*" syntax

    RESOLUTION: SVG will use the "aria-*" syntax for ARIA and tends to
    publish a module describing its use with the "role" attribute

    ED: I found the minutes from the last F2F that we resolved to use
    the role attribute
    ... couldn't find the ARIA resolution
    ... I guess this answers all their questions
    ... were all the questions answered on the coordination call

    <scribe> ACTION: Doug to send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed
    on the ARIA resolution [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2064 - Send an email to WAI and SVG that
    we agreed on the ARIA resolution [on Doug Schepers - due
    2008-06-19].

www-svg feedback

    ED: First one is
    ... ordering of effects with enable-background:new and filter on the
    same element

    AG: So reading the spec it wasn't entirely clear

    ED: I agree for the wording on how to generate the background image
    is not as clear as it could be

    AG: Would be nice to have examples of the buffer
    ... at different stages

    ED: We all seem to agree on the result of his example

    AG: So I had a play with it and what opera is doing is correct

    CM: The way it's written it's a bit unclear on what
    enable-background applies to

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to reword the enable-background property
    example [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2065 - Reword the enable-background
    property example [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].

    <ed>
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0003.html

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0003.html

    [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#AccessingBackgroundImage

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#AccessingBackgroundImage

    AG: So it's that bottom bit before the SVG Syntax example (Example
    enable-background-01) that's a bit confusing

    ED: So the next on is

    more BackgroundImage/enable-background issues

    <ed>
    [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0007.html

      [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0007.html

    ED: There is nothing really preventing you from doing that
    ... Batik seems to do what Robert is expecting
    ... and Opera seems to be clipping
    ... I think it's a bug in Opera
    ... Robert is suggesting to remove half of the sentence
    ... I don't think that's the best way
    ... I think it would be better to add some extra text saying that
    ... extending the background image past the viewPort
    ... is possible

    AG: Should we make an errata for this? or will this appear in the
    module?

    ED: My plan was for it to appear in the module

    <scribe> ACTION: Erik to propose wording that clarifies the use of
    background image outside of the viewPort bounds [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2066 - Propose wording that clarifies the
    use of background image outside of the viewPort bounds [on Erik
    Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].

    <scribe> ACTION: anthony to add Eriks proposed wording to the
    Errata. Link to ACTION-2066 [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2067 - Add Eriks proposed wording to the
    Errata. Link to ACTION-2066 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-06-19].

    ED: The next on is about Question about SVG List replaceItem

    <ed>
    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0043.html

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0043.html

    CM: I started to investigate it
    ... and then ran into a crash in FF
    ... [Explains issue]
    ... The spec doesn't say where the index is
    ... before or after the removal

    ED: This is about the SVG path seg list
    ... only effecting the case where you are trying to replace the item
    in a list
    ... in the case we have with replace item on the same list
    ... some weird things happen

    CM: So this is why the issues doesn't occur in normal DOM core lists

    ED: The spec is not clear on this
    ... the index doesn't really say if the removal is before or after
    ... so it's not clear where the item will end up

    CM: Do you think we should test different implementations?

    ED: I think Opera and Batik are doing different things
    ... it would be nice to have a few test cases for this
    ... we should ask him for test cases on this
    ... we can't resolve it unless we know what implementations are
    doing

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to test the SVG List replaceItem behavior
    of different implementations and report back [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-2068 - Test the SVG List replaceItem
    behavior of different implementations and report back [on Cameron
    McCormack - due 2008-06-19].

    <ed>
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

    ED: So the next one is
    ... Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2

    AG: Looks a bit like an optimisation

    CM: I think it's a reasonable thing to bring up
    ... maybe you can rely on caching to see if there is redirect still

    ED: I'm not sure either

    AG: Perhaps this is something we can come back to or discuss over
    email

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: anthony to add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata.
    Link to ACTION-2066 [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to fix the spec by aligning the script element
    behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of
    different implementations and report back [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to publish the SVG test suite, announce its
    publication and the list of known issues [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Doug to send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on
    the ARIA resolution [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to propose wording that clarifies the use of
    background image outside of the viewPort bounds [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Erik to reword the enable-background property example
    [recorded in
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html#action04]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version 1.133
     ([42]CVS log)
     $Date: 2008/06/12 12:04:24 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
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Check for newer version at [43]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/it's/both/
Succeeded: s/will/will be/
Succeeded: s/aria-/'aria-*'/
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: ed, anthony, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.536.aaaa, [IPcaller
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Present: ed anthony Doug_Schepers +1.408.536.aaaa [IPcaller] heycam
Regrets: Andrew Emmons
Agenda: [44]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJu
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Found Date: 12 Jun 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony cameron doug erik

      [44] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0125.html
      [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html

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      [46] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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