- From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:08:42 +1000
- To: W3C SVG Public Working Group <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html
---
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
10 Jun 2008
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0121.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
aemmons, ed, anthony, Shepazu, zlatinski
Regrets
Chair
Andrew Emmons
Scribe
anthony
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]publication of SVGT 1.2 testsuite
2. [6]status update for moving specs to public CVS
3. [7]XHR review
4. [8]HTML + SVG discussion
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 10 June 2008
<scribe> Scribe: anthony
<aemmons>
[10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/012
1.html
[10]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0121.html
publication of SVGT 1.2 testsuite
AE: Erik sent an email to the public list
... with sort of a review
... do we feel comfortable releasing the test as is?
DS: Don't see what the problem is
... we can always add to the test suite
ED: Miss matching reference images are a small problem
... The incorrect reference images are a bigger problem
AE: Regarding the existing of tests that haven't been approved
... and have the draft water mark
... I think Chris was after feedback
... I don't mind either way
ED: Some tests looked more complete than others
... in my opinion I think we should fix the ones with serious errors
... such as mismatching reference images
AE: So what does everyone else think?
... there are people that may be waiting for the test suite
... e.g. OMA
<ed>
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/010
3.html
[11]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0103.html
ED: I guess another option is to publish my mail along with the test
suite
AE: A list of known issues
... that might be a good compromise
AG: I'm fine with that
AE: So if we go ahead with this
... when can we publish it?
... my impression is that this is something Doug or Chris have to do
DS: I can probably publish it this week
RESOLUTION: We will proceed to with publication of the test suite
package currently in CVS and we will package known issues along with
it
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Update list of known issues and add draft
water marking back to tests that are still in their infancy
[recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2057 - Update list of known issues and add
draft water marking back to tests that are still in their infancy
[on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-17].
ED: Should I put the list of known issues on the wiki
AE: Sure
status update for moving specs to public CVS
DS: Is that me?
AE: I seem to remember Chris saying he could do that task
DS: He's been a bit sick lately and hasn't been able to get to it
... I'd like to get to doing it this week if I can
... have a lot to do at the moment
... It shouldn't be too hard to transition it to it's new home
... just need a block of time to do it
AE: We have to coordinate on the list when we are going to do it
... so changes don't get lost
<ed> [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2039
[13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2039
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to look into problem with new tracker having
incorrect links to minutes and notes in issues [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2058 - Look into problem with new tracker
having incorrect links to minutes and notes in issues [on Doug
Schepers - due 2008-06-17].
XHR review
DS: Both Erik and Cameron have sent in reviews
... I had already sent some comments earlier on my own
... I haven't had the time to do any more review
... I think Erik and Cameron have caught all of the big issues
... We should probably compile the two sets of comments together
... to send off
AE: Sounds good
... the comments have already been put on the list for some time
... so if any one had any issues with it they could start a
discussion
... does everyone else agree with Doug's proposal?
ED: Sounds good to me
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to collate together Cameron's and your own
comments for XHR and send them to the WebApps list [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2059 - Collate together Cameron's and your
own comments for XHR and send them to the WebApps list [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2008-06-17].
HTML + SVG discussion
AE: So has everyone had a chance to read Tony's proposals?
AG: I did
ED: Yup
AE: I did too
DS: Yes
AE: There a number of ways is to go through the document
... if you read it did you have comments for the list or are your
saving them for the telcon?
DS: Not sure on the best way to proceed
AE: We could use Erik's email as a focus point for discussion
ED: Is Power Point format file the way we want to present it?
DS: Wrong format for the audience
... need to present it into spec format
TZ: I was thinking of changing to HTML format after presenting it in
Power Point
... what I could do is convert it to PDF
DS: We need to rework it into HTML
... needs to be a single document
... instead of a bunch of pages
... I can help do that
AE: So that make sense having it in HTML
... so we know it will be in a different format
... do we continue reviewing this?
... or do we transcribe this to HTML?
DS: There is also Erik's spec text
... I guess we will be making a couple of different proposals
AE: What is Erik's spec text?
ED: I will send the spec text out
AE: So let's just start with Erik's comments
... for the first comment
... - Slide "Interleaved Parsing of HTML - SVG"
... I guess it's just talking about the assertion of not being able
to put HTML in SVG
... I agree with you there Erik
... So may it is just a matter for taking out the sentence
TZ: Not only is there complication from the parser side
... I would also think about rendering side of things
... I'm a little bit concerned about embedding HTML
... lets say we have HTML table inside a group
... and you start rotating the group
... what would you do with the table inside the group?
... this is the concern I have
... would it be a more complicated rendering model
... does this make sense to embed HTML in SVG
DS: Firstly there is a CSS transformations proposal by apple
... so I think they are very much interested way in bring in
transformations
... in a compatible way with SVG
... I don't think that from the rendering perspective that it is a
problem
... I don't think that particular rendering is the problem
... there may be other problems
ED: I suppose you could spec it like HTML would respect those
elements
... I don't think it's a problem from the SVG point of view anyway
DS: I think the rendering problems are orthogonal to the parsing
problems
... I actually have pretty good faith to work with us and the CDF
working group
... to define the kind of rendering that we think is compelling
... that we think users are going to want to do
AE: So what I'm hearing is this sentence was to restrict the model
... we should probably put something to the effect that the HTML
needs to be well formed when in the SVG
TZ: One thing I didn't quite get did you want me to incorporate
those comments into the document?
... or Doug did you want to incorporate it into HTML
DS: However we want to do it is fine with me
AE: We probably need to get the HTML one done sooner than later
DS: If we can have somebody who wouldn't mind converting it to spec
style HTML
... that would be good
ED: I guess I could do that
... bit pressed on time
DS: I have a feeling we are not acting in a timely manner
<scribe> ACTION: Anthony to convert the Power Point slides for SVG
in HTML to a HTML spec-ish kind of document [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2060 - Convert the Power Point slides for
SVG in HTML to a HTML spec-ish kind of document [on Anthony Grasso -
due 2008-06-17].
AE: To answer Tony's question any changes we make will go directly
into the HTML document
... so is this our secondary proposal?
ED: So it's basically what we've started to discuss in the power
point
AE: Should we start from this then?
ED: I think the Power Point document is a pretty good high level
view of it
... from the HTML side of things they are looking for something like
that
... based on the last draft that had SVG stuff in it
AG: Where to I put this HTML proposal?
DS: Could you just upload them into CVS?
ED: In the public one you mean?
DS: Yes
AE: I guess one of my concerns is that these things stay in sync
with HTML
... mean track the changes in our HTML proposal
ED: Would be good to link to the last draft that had the svg stuff
in it
... and maybe use bits from it
AE: As far as the first point goes we will specify rules for
embedding HTML in SVG
... mainly that it has to be well formed
... For the next point it seems faily straight forward
... that's just something on your end Anthony
... to change these things to lower case
AG: Ok
AE: So the next one is the cascading parser structure
TZ: This was intended to be a high level diagram
... the reason why HTML parser is on the top because it is the
primary one
... but maybe we need to restructure the diagram
... but I agree with you
... do we have any ideas how this should be structured?
ED: Could group all the parsers together
... maybe make on block a primary initial parser
... it might make it more clear
TZ: Do we want this tokeniser to be the primary parser?
ED: I guess it's not wrong to put it inbetween
... but it may not be required for all parsers
<ed> For document format XYZ: file input -> tokenizer -> parser
(html, css, svg, xml, javascript)
<ed> and inside the parser box show the connections between
different parsers
AE: So we are ok with putting the tokenizer step in between?
TZ: I had a page explaining it
... but Erik you had a problem with putting it in
ED: I had no problem with putting it in
... but I just wanted to point out that the the way the tokenizer is
specced in HTML5 makes it too limited for proper use for XML
AE: Tony are you ok to take another shot at the diagram
<scribe> ACTION: zlatinski to Modify the cascading parser diagram
[recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2061 - Modify the cascading parser diagram
[on Atanas (Tony) Zlatinski - due 2008-06-17].
AE: The next comment there from Erik is the content provider
TZ: I agree the comment from Erik that "content provider" is not
quite clear\
... language handler or content handler sound good to me
AE: Are there other terms used in the HTML 5 document that is
familiar to them
TZ: It's a particular plug to handle a particular language
DS: I'd say content handler
... or sub-parser
TZ: Content handler sounds good too
AE: Sounds reasonable me too
... Anthony can you change content provider to content handler
AG: Ok
AE: The next one we've kind of discussed already
TZ: Do you have any idea how to address this problem
ED: You don't need a special tokenizer to handle each language
... if you read the HTML 5 spec
... the tokenzier throws away information about the casing
... You could put an additional sentence saying as long as the
tokenizer has to keep enough information to do both HTML and XML
parsing on the output
AE: Makes sense to me
... can keep sentence about special consideration
... Tony does that sound fine?
TZ: Yes
AE: Next one is slide for element identification
TZ: Maybe this part wasn't quite clear
... this is from the perspective of how you switch to a particular
language
... we have to kind of reshuffle things around to make it more clear
ED: It still isn't clear enough to me what happens when it switches
... does it switch at the element you started parsing on
... or does it continue until it reaches something it can't handle
... that's my question
AE: Tony is that something we should discuss more
TZ: This is probably one of the major issues
... I could probably restructure this bit to make it more clear
ED: Which element you're currently in my define what the element is
... in a HTML <a> tag
... or an SVG <a> tag
TZ: From this perspective going back from the SVG to HTML
ED: That's what we need to define
... when to stop
... when to switch back
... in my opinion is we find an SVG element we switch to XML parsing
... and when we find the closing svg element we switch to HTML
parsing
AE: Erik when you say XML well formed HTML in SVG
... is that XHTML or HTML that is well formed to XML
ED: As long as it's well formed
AE: What about casing, upper and lower mixture
ED: As long as the start and end tags match
TZ: I haven't done any examples or discussed it in any detail
... I can look into this section into more detail
... I could put a bit more work into that and make it more clear
AE: So this is the element identification section
... that's what you're talking about reworking those sections?
<scribe> ACTION: zlantinski to Revisit the element identification
slides based on our comments [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - zlantinski
ED: I'm just noting if you want tag soup HTML and SVG interleaved in
any way you like
... it would work in their proposal but would not be conformant XML
on the source level
AE: I noticed some parts are yellow, Anthony that's where you made
changes?
AG: Yes
AE: Continue with the Jave script content slide
TZ: You don't see any cases where you'd like to have separate ECMA
script
... like have a separate ECMA script context
<ed> <object data="some.svg"> will give you a separate script
context
TZ: The document implied that the content handler would have a
separate ECMA script handler
... you are saying that they should have the same context
... in the same DOM
... as soon as you get to a new content handler you make a new
context
... so practically you're saying the control is from the child
content not from the parent content
ED: Just from looking at how it works today, you get the same DOM
... I would expect it to be the same for HTML as it is in XHTML
... I think you should build the same DOM
TZ: I should change the section to make it clear that they have to
be the same one
... and that the parent passes this down to the child
... this being the context
AE: Next one is CSS parsing
TZ: If we always enforce using the same document then we should use
the same CSS rules
AE: Yes so it's the same as above
... do we need to discuss that section more or can we move on?
TZ: With regards to SVG widgets section
... just clarifying your comment Erik
AE: So you could have some CSS styling in the SVG but it will apply
to any node in the document not just the SVG
... because it's a single context
ED: I think the idea of having SVG widgets that provide alternative
recognition for SVG
... sounds a bit like XSLT or XBL
TZ: HTML doesn't have name spaces, so you put all the comment
information inside the widget
ED: Could do that today with an XSL style sheet
TZ: So you're saying there is no point to talk about widgets at all?
ED: That's my opinion
TZ: Do you mind sending me an example
... of the concept
ED: Sure
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Anthony to convert the Power Point slides for SVG in
HTML to a HTML spec-ish kind of document [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to look into problem with new tracker having
incorrect links to minutes and notes in issues [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to collate together Cameron's and your own
comments for XHR and send them to the WebApps list [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Update list of known issues and add draft
water marking back to tests that are still in their infancy
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: zlantinski to Revisit the element identification
slides based on our comments [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: zlatinski to Modify the cascading parser diagram
[recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [25]scribe.perl version 1.133
([26]CVS log)
$Date: 2008/06/10 14:06:26 $
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[25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/this/the spec text/
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Succeeded: s/current tokenizer is too limited for XML/the way the token
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Succeeded: s/HTML a tag/HTML <a> tag/
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Succeeded: s/in away/in any way you like/
Succeeded: s/conformant XML/conformant XML on the source level/
Succeeded: s/from HTML/for HTML/
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Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Default Present: aemmons, ed, anthony, Shepazu, zlatinski
Present: aemmons ed anthony Shepazu zlatinski
Agenda: [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJu
n/0121.html
Found Date: 10 Jun 2008
Guessing minutes URL: [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: anthony doug erik zlantinski zlatinski
[28]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0121.html
[29] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html
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Received on Tuesday, 10 June 2008 14:09:27 UTC