W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-svg-wg@w3.org > April to June 2008

Minutes Sophia-Antipolis F2F, day 5 (May 23, 2008)

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:51:36 +0200
To: "public-svg-wg@w3.org" <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.ubl84aicdhsuf5@gnorps.palace.opera.no>

Please find the minutes from the last day of the F2F here:

  http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html

or as text below:

   [1]W3C



      [1] http://www.w3.org/



                               - DRAFT -



                   SVG Working Group Teleconference



23 May 2008



   See also: [2]IRC log



      [2] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-irc



Attendees



   Present

   Regrets

   Chair

          Erik



   Scribe

          erik, aemmons



Contents



     * [3]Topics

         1. [4]moving to public cvs

         2. [5]SVG in HTML

         3. [6]1.2 modules

         4. [7]SVG in HTML

         5. [8]1.2 modules

         6. [9]SVGPath normalization

         7. [10]XHR

         8. [11]Close path normalization

         9. [12]Explicit values for getSegmentParam()

        10. [13]Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic

        11. [14]CSS and SVG

        12. [15]Demos!

        13. [16]BitFlash/Samsung Layers

        14. [17]BitFlash/Samsung SCXML

     * [18]Summary of Action Items

     _________________________________________________________







   <trackbot-ng> Date: 23 May 2008



   <scribe> scribe: erik



   <scribe> scribeNick: ed



moving to public cvs



   <anthony>

   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.h

   tml



     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0111.html



   AG: my idea was to organize by spec / module

   ... it's easier to make testsuites per module then

   ... you can link the tests with the spec and vice versa

   ... the relative links would be smaller



   DS: for errata and revisions of the module we can do it in this

   structure

   ... what mistakes in the old structure were in the old structure?



   AE: [drawing on whiteboard]

   ... explaining new structure

   ... separate old specs from the new ones, like have an 'archive'

   directory with the old stuff



   - root



   + modules



   ED: is it necessary to move the old specs over to the new cvs?



   DS: well, the files but not the history



   AE: well the history can't be moved anyway I guess



   * root



   - modules



   + compositing



   + filters



   - core



   + 1.2T



   + 2.0



   + XP



   - profiles



   + 1.1F



   + 1.2F



   - archive



   + <old specs>



   - tools



   AG: the testsuite revision numbers will change, which is a problem



   DS, AE: true, let's publish the testsuite update first, then move it

   to new cvs-space



   scribe: which means we'll have to regenerate the reference images

   and fix revision numbers for the next publication



   AE: so who moves the specs to public cvs?



   DS: that would be me

   ... you will also need cvs access to the new structure /WG and /IG



SVG in HTML



   TZ: there are many problems to solve parsing, compound documents etc



   DS: at this point the parsing thing is the focus

   ... we should list the other issues though, but it's probably

   something for the CDF group to look at

   ... to be included in the proposal



   TZ: some things are very important to SVG, and I think SVG should

   specify them



   DS: though some things like navigation are generic, and apply

   outside of SVG too



   <zlatinski> Here are the considerations about integrating SVG in

   HTML (and any other hosting languages):



1.2 modules



   AE: would be good to move the module table to the new wiki



   <scribe> ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki

   [recorded in

   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2037 - Move the svg module table to the

   new wiki [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].



SVG in HTML



   <zlatinski> Parsing



   <zlatinski> Re-flow management



   <zlatinski> Rendering/Drawing



   <zlatinski> CSS integration



   <zlatinski> JS context



   <zlatinski> Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to

   hosted language



   <zlatinski> Focus Navigation



   <zlatinski> API integration



   <zlatinski> Parsing



   <zlatinski> Re-flow management



   <zlatinski> Rendering/Drawing



   <zlatinski> CSS integration



   <zlatinski> JS context



   <zlatinski> Scripting language (JS) DOM access from the hosting to

   hosted language



   <zlatinski> Focus Navigation



   <zlatinski> API integration



   <zlatinski> Parsing



   <anthony> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny



     [21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/SVG_Tiny



   [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html



     [22] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html



1.2 modules



   <aemmons> Scribe: aemmons



   ED: Have we published compisiting as first public WD yet?



   <anthony>

   [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing

   /master/



     [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/



   AG: Not yet

   ... Pretty straightforward from 1.2 Full WD proposals

   ... Formatted like print spec

   ... Does it contain 1.1 compisiting?

   ... No



   AE: Should it? To bring it up to 1.1 full?



   AG: Perhaps separate module? Masking and clipping?



   AE: Depends on how small we want our modules

   ... Ahh, yes it is in our charter

   ... Two different modules there



   TZ: Where is global opacity fit?



   AG: Yes, global opacity with 1.1 should be in this module



   <scribe> ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing

   module [recorded in

   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2038 - Add 1.1 full opacity to

   compositing module [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-05-30].



   ED: These should not be specific for SVG - good if it can be used

   for a different language

   ... Would like to see it as a requirement



   AE: What about print?



   AG: I have to respond to comments, been busy with SVG testsuite



   ED: Compititing defines enable-background and filters does as well

   ... It defines how to build a background image

   ... I am saying we should not try and define again



   AG: How is it defined in filters?

   ... I thought it was filters only



   ED: It would probably be the same,



   AG: If you want compositing but not filters, what do you do?

   ... Have done a complete description for enable-background

   incompositing

   ... In the primer



   <ed> [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage



     [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/#AccessBackgroundImage



   ED: In the filter module there is wording to say host language is

   responsible for defining a set of element



   AE: [ Discussion on what to do with common attributes]

   ... We can have common attributes, definitions, etc in a seperate

   document and peices taken from them when the spec is generated so

   that they re-use the same definition



   DS: We could have a separate spec what has these that modules

   reference

   ... Perhaps same concept with full, brings in all modules as it

   generates the spec



   TZ: Should have a dependency graph



   DS: Yes

   ... I think we should ask other implementers what the most usefl

   formt would be. Seperate modules in the final form or seperate

   modules?



   AE: What about gradients?



   ED: We need an editor for all modules, this does not have one



   [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing

   /master/SVGCompositing.html



     [26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/compositing/master/SVGCompositing.html



   Resolution: We will have assertions tagged and formatted directly in

   the module specifications like SVG Print and Compositing. This will

   help testsuite development



   DS: I do not like MUST in ALL CAPS

   ... Helps readability

   ... Also may be a large section

   ... Assertions are really small

   ... Looks like a list of things as opposed to spec prose



   <scribe> ACTION: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module

   specs [recorded in

   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2039 - Mark up assertions in current

   filter module specs [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].



   ED: perhaps different classes for different assertions

   ... Transformations module?



   Resolution: Canon to be editor of Transformations module



   <anthony> [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/



     [28] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVG12-20041027/



SVGPath normalization



   AE: The issue is normalizing Q and T to C

   ... JSR-287 does not normalizae in this way

   ... Also, helps implementations which are based on OpenVG

   ... Still maintain hardware acceleration benefits for various curve

   types

   ... Because OpenVG can do this



   ED: It is defined differently in SVG 1.1 - will be incompatible and

   need an eratta

   ... SVG 1.1 full tells you you must normalize it to curve to

   ... how it is drawn it is the same

   ... SVGPathAnimatedPathData

   ... It is implemented in Opera and Batik



   <ed>

   [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathDa

   ta



     [29] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedPathData



   ED: The Tiny specs says you must normalize quads - will have to

   change 1.2 and 1.1

   ... But, little content using the 1.1 SVGAnimatedPathData



   AE: Summarize - increased compatibilty with JSR-287 and better

   opportinuty for hardware acceleration using OpenVG

   ... con - incompatible with 1.1



   [30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/

   1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization



     [30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#Attribute_Normalization



   remove Translate command Q to command



   change: Translate command T to command C



   to Translate command T to command Q



   Resolution: We will remove Q to C normalization requirement from 1.2

   and 1.1



   <scribe> ACTION: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify

   uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [recorded in

   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2040 - Make and errata item for 1.1 and

   modify uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [on Andrew

   Emmons - due 2008-05-30].



XHR



   ED: XHR is in Last Call

   ... Dues date for comments beginning of June

   ... Have asked us for comments



   <shepazu> [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/



     [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/



   ED: 2nd of June

   ... Should ask people on the group for comments

   ... To me it looks fine



   <scribe> ACTION: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR

   feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [recorded in

   [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2041 - Send e-mail to the list asking

   for XHR feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [on Erik

   Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].



   <ed> [34]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/



     [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterPrimer12/



   <ed> [35]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/



     [35] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilter12/



   <ed> [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/



     [36] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGFilterReqs12/



Close path normalization



   <ed>

   [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/001

   5.html



     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0015.html



   AE: Do you think we need a change to the spec to make it more clear?



   ED: Yes

   ... We should add to uDOM normalization section



   [38]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/

   1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization



     [38] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#PathNormalization



   <ed>

   [39]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/

   1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand



     [39] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/paths.html#PathDataClosePathCommand



   <shepazu> "Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s, t, v, and z) are

   converted to their absolute counterparts."



   <ed> "A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the

   cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."



   <shepazu> "Translate command Z to command Z. Although a 'closepath'

   has a superficial visual resemblance to a 'lineto', command Z must

   not be normalized to a 'lineto'."



   Action, Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A command Z

   is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where an

   implicit lineto is added before the path is joined."



   <scribe> ACTION: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A

   command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where

   an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." [recorded in

   [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2042 - Add path normalization wording

   to uDOM. \"A command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in

   the cases where an implicit lineto is added before the path is

   joined.\" [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].



   AE: and the wording above that: Relative commands (c, h, l, m, q, s,

   t, v, and z) are converted to their absolute counterparts."



Explicit values for getSegmentParam()



   ED: We should list the max index value for each comand to have it

   interropable



   AE: MOVE_TO, LINE_TO 2

   ... CURVE_TO, 6

   ... QUAD_TO, 4

   ... CLOSE , 0!

   ... CLOSE, 0



   Action, Aemmons to add clarification to getSegmentParam for the max

   index



   AE: Approved: udom-svgpath-201-t.svg

   ... Approved: udom-svgpath-202-t.svg



   <zlatinski> scrab: atanas



   <zlatinski> AG: Talks about Shear transform



   <zlatinski> AG: 2.5 vs. 3D



   <zlatinski> AG: TO do a real 3D perspective, we really need 4 x 4

   matrixes



   <zlatinski> because with 3 x 3 we can only rotate in one of the

   planes



   <zlatinski> TZ: THis sounds great, except that the processing power

   requared for that will be prohibitive



   <zlatinski> We did experiment with 3 x 3 and this added significant

   overhead in the pipeline, but was acceptable



   <zlatinski> Considering 4 x 4, i think would be unacceptable from

   performance perspective



   <zlatinski> I would suggest extending the Markup to follow OpenGL/ES

   spec and utilize the real 3D HW pipeline available today in the

   market



   <zlatinski> The idea is to have the XML be structured the way OpenGL

   would expect to find and utilize the power of the HW on that - so

   this would be a real 3D extension (Module)of SVG.



   <zlatinski> AG: Cannon believe that to achieve some of the features

   we need to support 4 x 4



   <zlatinski> AE: Do we have to be concern about mobile or SVG in

   general is a different question.



   <zlatinski> DS: Does it really fit in SVG, I would really

   concentrate the resources on integration with HTML and so forth.



   <zlatinski> CL: What are other rendering libraries are doing (other

   than OpenVG)



   <zlatinski> AG: They normaly do 3 x 3



   <zlatinski> CS: AG: Can we animate matrix



   <zlatinski> CL: There shall be a way to do that



   <zlatinski> CL: To support 3 x 3 we also have to normalize it,

   because how are we going to do calculation of 2 x 3 with 3 x 3



   <zlatinski> AE: Are you satisfied with the conclusion



   <zlatinski> AG: Not sure if 3 x3 would be OK yet



   <zlatinski> AG: I was also looking at the reflection filter - angle

   and scale offset do a similar effect.



   <zlatinski> ED: I think it is possible to do that.



   <shepazu> DS: I'd like to do a flip keyword



   <zlatinski> CL: TO add more stuff to animate transforms - like

   scale, flip, around arbitrary point and to add extra filter to take

   optional transform �.



   <zlatinski> ...



   <shepazu> ... a vector filter that uses those transform keywords



   <zlatinski> CL: I would want to also use % in rotate and in relation

   to what



Close 3x3 4x4 matrix topic



   <scribe> Scribe: aemmons



CSS and SVG



   <ed> ...and xsl



   DS: Change in members, chairs, would like to make sure we are on the

   same page

   ... work together on the same page

   ... Apple has interesting proposals for CSS

   ... would like to work with CSS in incorporating these

   ... most of our presentation properties are CSS properties



   ED: Technically not in the CSS spec



   DS: Any transforms, etc should also talk to whoever is specifying

   Canvas

   ... we both have transforms

   ... XSL as well



   AG: We've always had a good working relationship with XSL



   DS: And want the same for CSS, etc

   ... Webfonts a good start to coordinate with them

   ... Chris has talked with chairs, - a way forward is a joint task

   force

   ... We need to schedule a time with them during the Tpac for a

   meeting



   <scribe> ACTION: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac

   [recorded in

   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]



   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2043 - Setup a time to meet CSS during

   TPac [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-30].



   DS: As I understand it is not a high priority for them to do

   transform enhancements but is a good chance for us to move the web

   forward



   <shepazu> [42]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/



     [42] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/



   <shepazu> cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG



   <ed> macbookED:~/w3.org ed2$ cvs -d dev.w3.org:/sources/public co

   SVG



   <ed> Permission denied (publickey).



   <ed> cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above

   messages if any)



   <shepazu> cvs -d username@dev.w3.org:/sources/public co SVG



   <zlatinski>

   [43]http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_prioriti

   es_in_firefox_3.html



     [43] http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/tor/archives/2007/03/svg_priorities_in_firefox_3.html



   <shepazu>

   [44]http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html



     [44] http://www.svgopen.org/2007/papers/svgopen2007-paper/index.html



   <shepazu> Cameron's Layout stuff



Demos!



BitFlash/Samsung Layers



   Demos layers in SVG using a 'layeredG' element, with level attribute

   that indicates draw order that can be animated, etc



   general discussion between structured approach or flat approach.

   Drawbacks and benifits to both.



   rename layeredG to layers and level attribute to layer



   perhaps own 1.2 module, layers



BitFlash/Samsung SCXML



   Demonstrated SCXML and SVG working together for complex state

   machines with no scripting



   Mostly adds SMIL events for state entry, exit, change



   Very useful for UI



   <shepazu>

   [45]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview



     [45] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview



   <shepazu>

   [46]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/r

   esources/http_php.txt



     [46] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/resources/http_php.txt



   <ed> rrs-agent, make minutes



Summary of Action Items



   [NEW] ACTION: Aemmons to make and errata item for 1.1 and modify

   uDOM spec to remove Q to C path normalization [recorded in

   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   [NEW] ACTION: AG to move the svg module table to the new wiki

   [recorded in

   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   [NEW] ACTION: Anthony to add 1.1 full opacity to compositing module

   [recorded in

   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   [NEW] ACTION: Ed to add path normalization wording to uDOM. "A

   command Z is always normalized to command Z, even in the cases where

   an implicit lineto is added before the path is joined." [recorded in

   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action06]

   [NEW] ACTION: Erik to mark up assertions in current filter module

   specs [recorded in

   [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   [NEW] ACTION: Erik to send e-mail to the list asking for XHR

   feedback to be discussed on the May 29th telcon [recorded in

   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]

   [NEW] ACTION: Erik to setup a time to meet CSS during TPac [recorded

   in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html#action07]



   [End of minutes]

     _________________________________________________________





    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [54]scribe.perl version 1.133

    ([55]CVS log)

    $Date: 2008/05/23 16:46:50 $

     _________________________________________________________



     [54] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

     [55] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/



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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)



Succeeded: s/AN/AG/

Succeeded: s/Aprroved/Approved/

Succeeded: s/staff/stuff/

Found Scribe: erik

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Found Scribe: aemmons

Inferring ScribeNick: aemmons

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Inferring ScribeNick: aemmons

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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!

Possibly Present: AE AG CL CS ChrisL DS MikeSmith TZ aemmons anthony ch

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You can indicate people for the Present list like this:

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Found Date: 23 May 2008

Guessing minutes URL: [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html

People with action items: aemmons ag anthony ed erik



     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/23-svg-minutes.html



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-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Friday, 23 May 2008 16:50:32 GMT

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