Minutes: January 8, 2014 SVG Accessibility Task Force

Web link:


http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html


Text:

- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 09 Jan 2015


See also: IRC log


Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
      Fred and Rich
Scribe
      Rich
Contents
      Topics
         1. SVG mapping spec needs review
         2. Taxonomy Straw man walk through
         3. Group type or role
         4. Item role/type
         5. guide group
         6. annotation Group
         7. Scale Group
         8. region group
      Summary of Action Items



<trackbot> Date: 09 January 2015


<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force


<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred


<fesch> scribe:Rich


<richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich


SVG mapping spec needs review


<richardschwerdtfeger>
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html



<fesch> Rich: Wants svg mapping spec reviewed, but wants a couple of weeks
to update before review


<fesch> Rich: provided background on spec he wants reviewed


<fesch> Doug: wants to ensure description is computed correctly and covers
all cases


Taxonomy Straw man walk through


<fesch>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/0009.html



<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I do want to start on the taxonomy that is in
the email in that link


<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I have 2 agenda items today which is to walk
through through the strawman as as starting point and see where we want to
go next. ..


<richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: we need to decide on the additional
taxonomies. We need to talk about data interaction. We need to get all of
us at a high level to agree on what the basic components of the taxonomy
are.


<richardschwerdtfeger>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2014Dec/att-0009/taxonomy-IBM.html



<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: there is a reference from the ACM journals
that describe graphics as to how they classify them.


<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: if there is other research we need to look at
I am happy to work with them


<richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: anyone doing literature searches in this area
I am interested in talking to


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: he is going to send the name of the
publication to the group as it is copyrighted


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we strongly avoid referencing things that is
not openly available to w3c spec.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I won’t access things that are beyond the pay
wall.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: IBM has access to some of them.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: let’s take a look at the proposal that has
been put up.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this taxonomy is grouped hirarchically


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the first role is a connector which seems to
map well to the SVG connector


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a leader line is something that links a label
to an object in a diagram. … like an eye chart.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I agree that is not a connector


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I discussed SVG connectors this was the
concept.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we should have a connector role


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it should be implicit in the connector
element. In case someone wants to do something with a connector role
without using the connector spec. they should be able to do that.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the one thing I am concerned about is spending
5 minutes on each item. I want tor try to get all of these today


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the next is a contour. It is a polygine. It is
a line of equal. One contour has the same value.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for us to reasonably talk about them we need a
set of standard defintions.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: agree


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a contour is a topographic map line with
properties having the same value such as an elevation. They can be called
isobars as an example


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: like temperature


<richardschwerdtfeger> event: I got this out of timelines


<richardschwerdtfeger> event: is something that is confined on a time line.


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: an event needs to be in the context of
something so that it will make sense.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for example an axis item or a legend item.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for now I will leave it out in definitions as
it appears redundant


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: it could be a subrole


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen charts for something else. Such as
an industrial process where we are monitoring something.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: like between t1 and t2


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: so where we are continuously montioring
something


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: for someone who is not familiar with that
type of diagram they want to know how things are represented.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we certainly need a system that in its firs
version or extensions that define the high level concepts where we can
define the high level meaning of things


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: In an SVG diagram with formerly defined
semantics it is the user who defines which components of that content they
want to take


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t think that we should take up the
visual aspect of this. That should be a separate topic.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: that is a good example of the issue


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think the whole visual description is an
entirely separate topic


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the geometrical concepts can lead to this


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: let’s try to defer for now


Group type or role


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we have group in the ARIA spec.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: perhaps datagroup role to be distinct from
the aria group role


Item role/type


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: an item represents a single thing. It could be
a single point in a scatter plot. If you are familiar with a box with
whisker chart.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: it only means that it is a unique data item
vs. a graphical object


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: when I did my chart I put axis and legend
items … i felt something like that to be an item but I looked at your item
as a datapoint


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: it think we are conflating data points and
items


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: do you think that having the distinction
between items as distinction between datapoints


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I think that data is different that points in
an axis


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: yes


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I will let you finish. I think different types
of items are important


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we can introduce abstract roles where we want
to to classify concepts


guide group


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I took this out of statistical charts and maps


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: thes are things that are not data directly


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: there are two groups within


annotation Group


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I see these as labels


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: under these we have label, note, and title


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only distinction between notes and titles
is that notes don’t have particular meeting or location specific featues.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: how would a legend be handled?


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a scale group


Scale Group


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: unde scape group I have axis, demnsion line,
graticule (they curve), grid, legend, and scale


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: then we have a symble which is a wind
direction, … etcs.


<richardschwerdtfeger> cd/etcs/etc/


region group


<richardschwerdtfeger> this is different from guide group


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t understand the distinction between
label and title


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: most of the other stuff looks good


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: rather than scale I would use facet


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: they are different


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would speparate them out and use facet


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: Amelia likes dimensions


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: facet is not in dimension space


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the only pushback on using facet vs. scale is
I would like to match domains people commonly use


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: this is what I use for economics
visualizations


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I think it is entirely reasonable but the
more high level comments we have we should describe them.


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I don’t do data visualization. so I need very
clear understanding of this


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need real clarity


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think that you will find that the literature
uses wildly different terms.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think you agree bar charts can be horizontal
and vertical


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: some people insist bar charts can be vertical
where other people have a different trem for horizontal bar charts


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we are going to try to build a higher level
thing


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we don’t want to slavishly follow existing
literature


<fesch> rich: we have a note role in aria today


<fesch> rich: is it too early to try and write an aria spec?


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: or write some definitions


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: we can map these as a second step


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: I am basically referring to an aria format


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred came at it from a higher level of
abstraction and perhaps more exhaustive


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: fred looked at it from a taxonomy so that we
understand the space more


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t know that these are all roles


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like to see fred define his
terminology and then I define mine


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: perhaps one more exercise in defining things
and then we go to a spec.


<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Fred will create definitions for the next
meeting [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]


<trackbot> Created ACTION-1552 - Will create definitions for the next
meeting [on Fred Esch - due 2015-01-16].


<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Doug create definitions for his taxonomy
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]


<trackbot> Error finding 'Doug'. You can review and register nicknames at <
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.


<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: shepazu create definitions for his taxonomy
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action03]


<trackbot> Error finding 'shepazu'. You can review and register nicknames
at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have one more question on symbols. You put
them outside. I think that is perfectly valid. I had thought that you were
talking about legend symbols


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we need to make a distinction between what you
have and what is in a legend


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for lack of something better I will write a
definition


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this is where things are laid out on the paper


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have seen these in blueprints and technical
drawings


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: in some domains they appear to have meaning


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had done interactive circuit diagrams and
facility diagrams


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think we need to get the guys from Boeing
here


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: that is it


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: next time will have definitions and will go
through doug’s diagrams


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: text at bottom:


<richardschwerdtfeger> Legend of Graphics Types


<richardschwerdtfeger> G Graph (statistical chart)


<richardschwerdtfeger> M Map


<richardschwerdtfeger> B Blueprint/Technical drawing


<richardschwerdtfeger> T Time line


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think this task force should discuss
taxonomies. We should have one telecon talking about what the taxonomy is
for and the details of the spec.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want the the svg working group to go
around in ignorance of what is being done and why


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I don’t want us isolated


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I would like us to discuss with them what aria
is and why


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we need to have a way to get at the specific
taxonomy


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: for legend - we might want some thinking about
how a legend is differentiating different items on the chart. … for all the
blue items and all diamonds, etc.


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we should not avoid this


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I have thought a lot about the geometry and
how we should deal with it.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: i disagree with that. they need to have the
data value


<richardschwerdtfeger> jason: both the details and geometry is important


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I am not in complete agreement here


<richardschwerdtfeger> doug: before we do that I think we need to see how
it is exposed to AT.


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: legends is a gnarley area for sure.


<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: this is the first time to ever tackle this


<richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I have a masters in mapping


Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Doug create definitions for his taxonomy [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Fred will create definitions for the next meeting [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu create definitions for his taxonomy [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/09-aria-minutes.html#action03]


Rich Schwerdtfeger