W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-silver@w3.org > March 2019

Minutes of Silver meeting March 11 - 12

From: Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:38:30 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGQw2hmFZG=kG0LbpZo8=zp+-Td4adZ5DGmx=5nXSBmu=q_S0A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org>
Relevant links:

   - Requirements Survey Results
   <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SilverRequirmentsReview/results>
   - WCAG to Silver Outline Map (working doc)
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit>
   - Silver Project Plan (working doc)
   <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit>

Formatted minutes <https://www.w3.org/2019/03/11-silver-minutes.html>

Text of minutes:

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                 Silver Community Group Teleconference

11 Mar 2019

Attendees

   Present
          jeanne, Chuck, JF, Charles, AngelaAccessForAll, shari,
          Lauriat, Jennison, Cyborg, Jan, LuisG, KimD,
          JohnRochford, Lauriat_, RedRoxProjects, bruce_bailey,
          corbb, Makoto, kirkwood, RedRoxProjects_

   Regrets

   Chair
          Shawn, Jeanne

   Scribe
          Jan, LuisG, corbb

Contents

     * [2]Topics
         1. [3]Silver Presentation to EOWG
         2. [4]Combined prototype work
         3. [5]Mapping WCAG to Silver
         4. [6]Project Planning
     * [7]Summary of Action Items
     * [8]Summary of Resolutions
     __________________________________________________________

   <RedRoxProjects> FYI - this is Amy (my username doesn't give
   that away)

   <Chuck> Understanding

   <Chuck> adaptive

   <Cyborg> clear

   <Cyborg> i like continuing/continuous too

   <Chuck> flexible/functionail/fair

   <Chuck> Universal

   <Chuck> FUDGE

   <Cyborg> flexible universal clear...

   <Chuck> Flexible/functional usable/universal digital guidelines
   for everyone

   <Cyborg> everyone is there

   <Chuck> Resolving Accessibility Guidelines Education

   <Chuck> RAGE

   <Chuck> RAGU?

   <Cyborg> Accessible Guidelines for Everyone

   <Cyborg> AGE

   <Chuck> [14:30] <Chuck> Forward looking accessibility
   guidelines (FLAG) [14:31] <Chuck> World Creation Accessibility
   Guidelines [14:31] <Chuck> Accessibility Guidelines Pathway?
   [14:31] <Chuck> Accessible World Building

   <Chuck> <Chuck> Clear Accessibility Guidelines [14:33] <Chuck>
   work in PIG [14:33] <Chuck> Audio seems better. [14:33]
   <Cyborg> Digital Accessibility Guidelines? [14:33] <Chuck>
   different room I think. [14:33] <Chuck> Progressive Inclusion
   Guidelines (PIG)

   <bruce_bailey>
   [9]http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F
   2F_Meeting

      [9]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting

   <Chuck> Yes

   <Chuck> much superior than this morning.

   <Chuck> Collaboration is a good thing

   <Chuck> Silver is "code name". Not permanent. Not agreed upon.

   <Chuck> Roger, over under.

   <Cyborg> Needs

   <Cyborg> best practices is good

   <jeanne> angela: if requirement, then best practices is
   optional

   <Jan> scribe: Jan

   Shawn: What is the scope of what we should be covering?
   ... "digital" can mean anything that receives electricity?
   ... how do we not boil the ocean? We need to be more open than
   web content, but we have to draw a line somewhere

   JohnR: What about using the term "easy"

   Shawn: That might get into usability

   <Chuck> I'm just going to interrupt.

   Cyborg: Where are the intersecting lines - what is in the
   inside circle and what is in the outside circle?

   Chuck: What does everyone think the space is?

   <Cyborg> IoT?

   <Cyborg> digital?

   <RedRoxProjects> perhaps something like in the FAST working
   docs: [10]https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/

     [10] https://w3c.github.io/apa/fast/

   <RedRoxProjects> " It addresses primarily web content
   technologies but also relates to any technology that affects
   web content sent to users"

   <Cyborg> will digital storage count?

   Several people: computers; digital; anything that takes
   electricity; smart devices; human-to-computer interaction
   model;

   Shawn: There are guidelines for physical spaces and making them
   accessible - some "physical things" will fall under other
   accessibility guidelines, while the Silver guidelines will
   cover technologies covered under the W3C.

   <Cyborg> tech in a smart city context?

   <Cyborg> so does everything count that has a digital component?

   Shawn: I would like for us to center on user needs
   ... where is the line of boundary between web content and user
   agent?

   <Chuck> First cut at a mental definition: The user interface
   used to interact with any software or firmware.

   <Cyborg> digital vs technology

   <Chuck> The interface used to interact with any software or
   firmware.

   <Cyborg> backend vs front end?

   <RedRoxProjects> thanks chuck!

   <Cyborg> i have specifically been told that something couldn't
   be made accessible because it was a back-end issue - i wouldn't
   want to give them the room for that excuse, and designing
   things to be accessible from the beginning includes back-end as
   well

   <Cyborg> in fact, the work that Silver is doing around
   structure first illustrates that principle

   <Lauriat> +1 to not giving room for that excuse

   <Chuck> All components which allow a user to interact with any
   software or firmware.

   <Chuck> All components which facilitate the interaction with
   software or firmware.

   <Chuck> All components of a system which facilitate the
   interaction between a user and software or firmware.

   <shawn> WebEx [11]https://mit.webex.com/join/slhenry

     [11] https://mit.webex.com/join/slhenry

   <Chuck> I have received this message

   <Chuck> "You can join the meeting after the host admits you."

   <Chuck> I need the host to admit me.

   <Cyborg> same

   <Cyborg> i can't get in

   <Cyborg> can someone reach Jeanne to tell her?

   <Chuck> I'm hoping Shawn or someone else in this irc chat can
   pass it along.

   <Chuck> I have no other means of making the.... I'm admitted!

   <Cyborg> wait

   <Cyborg> i can't figure out how to hear anything

   <Cyborg> i can see but not hear

   <Chuck> me too

Silver Presentation to EOWG

   <Chuck> It looks like my audio isn't generating audio, and it
   appears that I can't hear anything either.

   <Chuck> Are we muted on your end?

   Proposed timeline to completion - move existing WCAG content
   into new structure - develop new content in 2020; ongoing
   maintenance will start in 2021 and publish silver
   recommendation in 2021

   <Chuck> We do not hear anything.

   <RedRoxProjects> I will find out

   <Chuck> At least I don't, and I don't believe Cybell (spelling)
   hears anything either.

   <Cyborg> Cybele

   <RedRoxProjects> it's being raised

   <Cyborg> can't hear anything

   <Chuck> thanks RedRoxProjects

   <Chuck> there it is!

   <Cyborg> i don't hear

   Jeanne: Working on requirements document - this was shared with
   AG this morning

   <Chuck> I suddenly can hear.

   <Cyborg> i still can't

   <Cyborg> i will try to get out and go back in

   <Cyborg> one sec

   <Chuck> There are two hot mikes in the room.

   <Chuck> There is an echo

   <Cyborg> waiting to be admitted

   <Cyborg> not in room

   <Chuck> k.

   <Cyborg> still not admitted

   <Chuck> RedRoxProjects can you see about getting Cyborg
   "admitted" to the meeting?

   <Chuck> You seem to be the individual who "makes things
   happen", which we appreciate.

   <RedRoxProjects> I'm not sure who is in control of it...

   <RedRoxProjects> someone else actually helped re the audio

   <RedRoxProjects> but thanks! <3

   <Chuck> Shawn Henry is the host.

   Jeanne: Design principles are not necessarily measurable,
   whereas requirements would be measurable.

   <Cyborg> i'm in now :)

   <Chuck> excellent!

   <RedRoxProjects> is there still an issue with the audio?

   <Chuck> thanks all

   <RedRoxProjects> re the echo?

   <Chuck> I think Cyborg had to exit and re-enter.

   <Chuck> All is well now.

   <RedRoxProjects> fantastic \o/

   <Chuck> Of a little significance, there is an echo because
   JohnRochford's mike and Eric's mike are both hot. So a bit of
   an echo, but it's tolberable.

   <Chuck> tolerable.

   Jeanne: for individual pieces of guidance, there may be
   multiple ways to measure it. For example, we can tell that
   something has alt text, but we don't have a way to measure the
   quality of the alt text.

   <bruce_bailey> @@ design principles (slides 10 and 11) goes
   from 5 to 7, skipping 6

   <Chuck> it's now pefect

   <Chuck> s /pefect/perfect/

   <RedRoxProjects> Shawn sorted it <3

   <Chuck> Shawn's da human!

   Jeanne: Instead of being a prescriptive, all or nothing
   measure, we want to give people an incentive to go beyond the
   minimum by having different levels - for example, give points
   for including people with disabilities in your design.
   ... Silver wiki has a list of links to our current work
   ... we want to support the tools that people like to use, so we
   provide links to these tools from the wiki
   ... We want revolutionary structure and evolutionary content -
   we expect to have a different structure in terms of how it is
   organized etc., but the content will evolve from what it is
   today
   ... Information architecture - we are flattening the structure
   (we want guidelines that are technology neutral and methods
   that are more technology-specific
   ... When we move WCAG content to silver, principles will become
   tags; sc's that are technology-neutral will be guidelines;
   technology-specific guidelines will become methods
   ... overall score will determine your level of bronze, silver,
   gold, etc.
   ... planning to get rid of SC numbers
   ... would like to move beyond existing technology - should not
   be restricted to web content
   ... will include advice for browsers, user agents, authoring
   tools, etc.

   <yatil>
   [12]https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11du_WWkSM2GZvV60z70
   uwPxcMeDBuWlpgd4ND6pKX9A/edit#slide=id.g51ee35a5e3_1_754

     [12]
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/11du_WWkSM2GZvV60z70uwPxcMeDBuWlpgd4ND6pKX9A/edit#slide=id.g51ee35a5e3_1_754

   Jeanne: we are working on a style guide - would love to have
   help from EO on this
   ... Conformance Prototype - we want to allow for greater
   flexibility to reward desirable behavior for different types of
   products and products; allow for more flexible tests, etc.
   ... start with user needs, create tests, define methods, and
   then define guidelines ... everything should start with user
   needs and end with the guideline
   ... The 2021 date is for a recommendation that includes WCAG
   repackaged, along with new guidance that we want for
   disabilities that may not have been well represented in
   previous guidelines.

   ChrisO: Have you thought about how you're going to manage the
   transition?

   Jeanne: We don't have an answer yet, but it's something we are
   looking at - we haven't started writing yet ... we've only been
   looking at the structure so far.

   Judy: Are you planning this as an in-place replacement or an
   alternate structure?

   Jeanne: We have always thought about this as a gradual
   transition - both WCAG and Silver will coexist for a while, but
   we will continue to think about it.

   ShawnH: Why did you decide to have your own style guide with a
   link to plain language guidance?

   Jeanne: Because we wanted to build on it as things evolve.

   <david-macdonald_> I added my responses to the requirements.
   Weather caused plane overnight in Montreal last night. (just
   arrived)

   ShawnL: One of the things we looked at as part of our research
   was to look at how many companies have their own guidelines; we
   looked at why companies are doing this and we wanted to solve
   some of those problems and make it easier to build on things.

   Shadi: Do companies ever use a standard directly, or do they
   have their own interpretations?

   <shawn> [discussion about organizations making own version ]

   <Cyborg> where are we now?

   <Cyborg> is there a new link?

   <Chuck> I assume that we are meeting on the original webex.

   <Chuck> Shawn, I assume this is on the same webex (silver),
   correct?

   <Cyborg> Chuck and I are back on - Cybele

   <Chuck> Jeanne, are we meeting on the same webex? Silver?

   <Chuck> Cybel and I are camped on that webex.

   <Chuck> MichaelC, do you know if we are joining the silver
   webex? Cybel and I are camped on that webex now.

   <Chuck> Progressively Liberalized Accessibility Treatment In
   Natural User Macrocosms (PLATINUM)

   <Chuck> FYI... to anybody out there... Cybel and I are camped
   on the Silver webex.

   <Cyborg> we can't hear anything

   <Chuck> But we hear nothing, see nothing, all we can do is
   speak evil.

   <Cyborg> has it started?

   <Chuck> Is there life out there?

   <Chuck> Can anybody acknowledge their presence?

   <Cyborg> we really want to participate in the plain language
   workshop

   <Cyborg> how do we reach out to you?

   <Chuck> [13]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

     [13] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

   <Chuck> [14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

     [14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

   <Chuck> [15]https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

     [15] https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

   <Cyborg> help - we can't find you

   <jeanne> [16]https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_silver-ftf

     [16] https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_silver-ftf

   <Cyborg> we are there, you are not...

   <Chuck> I do not hear you.

   <Chuck> Cyborg and I are on the silver tf webex.

   <Chuck> is that not the accurate one?

   <Chuck> Cybele and I have been on this one for a while.

   <Chuck> Trying to figure out where you guys are.

   <Chuck> oh.

   <Chuck> So has it been a break?

   <Cyborg> I just joined again and nobody else is here?

   <Cyborg> i just called back in and just me and Chuck

   <Chuck> happy to have kept you company cybele

   <Cyborg> if there is a visual component, could that be shared
   please too? so far, i can hear well but can't see anything

   Jeanne: Topic: Meeting with EO on Plain Language

   Brent: I will be the contact from EO on this project; I have
   been working on this with the understandings documents to
   determine how to reword them.
   ... We have started a Google Doc that basically has an outline
   of things that we think are important with respect to plain
   language.

   KrisAnne: We need to create our documents for the "new guy."

   Brent: There's a fine line between simplifying the language too
   much and getting it adopted by the W3C - people still need to
   respect what is being said.

   Chris: You also don't want to have a situation where you're
   having to decode language.

   Brent: It might be nice to have a goal where you wouldn't have
   to have an Understanding Document

   Jeanne: We're trying to tease apart the W3C conformance for
   technical specifications from regulatory requirements

   <jeanne> Silver Style Guide:
   [17]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHn
   kar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

     [17]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHnkar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

   Brent: There are some things in the EO style guide that might
   be able to be added to the Silver style guide

   <Brent> EO Style Guide:
   [18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

     [18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

   <Brent> [19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

     [19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style

   <Cyborg> when it's appropriate, how would i ask a question?
   happy to wait...

   <jeanne> Silver Style Guide:
   [20]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHn
   kar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

     [20]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcCzoKvICUHCR5dM_fV4AHnkar-WJli4hxUUE0nzwlQ/edit

   I will tell them we have a queue

   Cyborg: One comment around "intended audience" - at the most
   general level, the two groups we talked about that would
   benefit from plain language would be regulators and people with
   disabilities who are users and want to hold an organization
   accountable and they want to know if there's something in the
   guideline that they can use; another group might be seniors; in
   the prototype, we've tried to aim it toward people who would be
   very unfamiliar.
   ... it appears as those we are reverting back, so there are
   some scale challenges and there's some push-back to from people
   who are very committed to technical language

   We just lost Cyborg's audio

   <Chuck> Hi Cybele... cool, back.

   Shawn: Methods will need to be in plain language, but they will
   still need to have technical language

   Brent: One of the things the Understanding Documents do well is
   that they provide a glossary.

   Jeanne: Personally, I don't like glossaries - I would rather
   have it explained in the text.

   <Chuck> That is strange.

   <Cyborg> uh oh it's beeping non stop

   <Cyborg> we can't hear anything

   <Cyborg> and now it's silent

   JohnR: One way we do this is we might say "foot doctor" and
   then in parentheses we put "podiatrist."

   <Chuck> I think we lost the room.

   <Cyborg> we can't hear anything

   <Chuck> Like a PC crashed.

   Webex has had a meltdown - we are trying to reconnect.

   <Chuck> Cybele and I are staying on.

   <Cyborg> waiting for you

   <Lauriat> Discussing a problem around using "programmatically
   determined" with the recommendation to just stop.

   <Chuck> Oh boy

   <Cyborg> oh no

   <Cyborg> oh no

   <Cyborg> :(

   <Cyborg> here we go...falling through cyberspace

   <Chuck> R2D2 is trying to join.

   <Lauriat> Examples using the Information Architecture
   Prototype, for us to work off:
   [21]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13ZUtgIDUyC8KTQcQqLz
   jqluDX7Z9fhmx

     [21]
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13ZUtgIDUyC8KTQcQqLzjqluDX7Z9fhmx

   <Cyborg> Chuck and I are discussing programmatically determined
   - possible alternative: must be identifiable in code.

   <Cyborg> argh

   <Cyborg> any other way to join?

   Lucy: "When the user must take an action" is some suggested
   wording for input

   <jeanne>
   [22]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6
   WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.l24asirpmi0

     [22]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.l24asirpmi0

   Shawn: Looking at "Labels or Instructions

   <jeanne>
   [23]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6
   WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.904awgjzi8xk

     [23]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit#heading=h.904awgjzi8xk

   <Chuck> Cybele: That was a cool conversation. I enjoyed that.

   <bruce_bailey>
   [24]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6
   WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit

     [24]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M03NLcnNlrEAvcAy1h_esM6WzGsVKCw8ZbzowOZQWvo/edit

   Shawn: We started off by looking at the term, "input" and
   replaced it with "when the user must act."

   <Brent>
   [25]https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/labels-or-instr
   uctions.html

     [25]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/labels-or-instructions.html

   <bruce_bailey> Labels or instructions are provided where parts
   require interaction beyond (simple click on a link)

   <kirkwood> easily understood?

   <Cyborg> Every input -- such as texts or graphics -- needs a
   simple cue or label. Lists of inputs need simple instructions.

   <jeanne> Simple instructions can be understood the first time
   they are read.

   <Chuck> Just for comparison: Every input -- such as texts or
   graphics -- needs an obvious cue or label. Lists of inputs need
   obvious instructions.

   <Cyborg> @Jeanne that could be an added sentence.

   <Chuck> I took Cybele's and just played with a synonym.

   <Cyborg> the only concern I have withthe word obvious is that
   it carries judgment.

   <Chuck> Oh it does! Mine sounds a bit judgemental.

   <Chuck> OBVIOUSLY the word OBVIOUS carries a judgement.

   <Cyborg> Every input -- such as texts or graphics -- needs a
   simple and consistent cue or label, that is visibly obvious.

   <Cyborg> and "visibly obvious" for some reason sounds slightly
   less judgmental than obvious on its own...

   <Cyborg> easily visible is better.

   <corbb> Every form field that asks for information from the
   user has nearby posted instructions.

   <Cyborg> input = field?

   JohnR: I think we need to have a summary statement and then we
   can break things down into methods for different scenarios.

   <Cyborg> I like the concept of "breaking it down" - can that
   principle be added in the style guide?

   <Cyborg> it's very hard to hear who is speaking now...

   <Chuck> Cybele: The term I'm use to using for elements on which
   a user can act is "component". But that is a very broad term.

   <Cyborg> who is speaking now?

   <Chuck> I don't know. I can make out the words, but I don't
   know who is speaking.

   <Cyborg> i didn't hear everything he said.

   <Chuck> BTW: I have to leave in 10 minutes.

   JohnR: Another clear way to communicate is through examples

   Brent: We are adding personas into our Understandings Documents

   <Chuck> Re "another clear way to comminucate is through
   examples", I used an analogy for Cybele in an effort to explain
   "programatically determinable", and we both had epiphonies.

   <Cyborg> our prototype has these headings: summary, why, who it
   helps, example (and exception)

   <Chuck> s /comminucate/communicate/

   <Cyborg> I like the example including a user story.

   <Cyborg> conversation to shelf for later - building empathy
   through user stories, maybe before/after cases

   <Chuck> I have not heard "empathy building" before.

   <Chuck> 1.3.1 is my favorite standad.

   <Chuck> standard.

   <Cyborg> link please...

   <Cyborg> AT can interpret it from the code

   <Cyborg> ?

   <Cyborg> programmatically determined = assistive technology can
   interpret it from the code?

   <Cyborg> or must be...

   <Chuck> Not JUST assistive technologies.

   <Cyborg> external devices must be able to interpret it from the
   code.

   <Cyborg> ?

   <Cyborg> external devices (such as assistive technology) must
   be able to interpret it from the code?

   <Chuck> yes.

   <Chuck> [Chuck claps]

   <Chuck> It's enjoyable working with all of you. In particular,
   I want to call out how enjoyable it was to spend time with
   Cybele (given circumstances we got to spend a lot of time
   together).

   <Cyborg> awww thanks Chuck - lovely to meet you too!

   <Cyborg> and hopefully again soon - will you be there tomorrow?

   Lucy: Do we have a restriction on how long our text can be?

   <Chuck> I need to look at the AGWG agenda. I think I'm going to
   be with Silver. And I think Silver and AGWG have overlap
   tomorrow.

   Brent: Just write it in a way that makes sense and then start
   whittling it down. A longer, clear description is better than a
   shorter description full of jargon.

   <Cyborg> i plan to be with Silver too, at least for the first
   half. not sure about the second.

   Brent: avoid a wall of text and use bullets

   <Chuck> GUILTY!

   JohnR: A company called "Common Craft" creates videos that
   explain complex concepts in ways people can understand

   <Cyborg> i don't know if they can hear

   <Cyborg> and i can barely hear

   <Cyborg> i asked if there are simpler words for semantics and
   annotation

   Lucy: Semantics is the ability to understand the relationships
   between items - proper order, etc.

   <Chuck> Bye guys.

   <Chuck> bye ALL

   <Cyborg> wait

   <Cyborg> chuck - what is next?

   <Chuck> wait?

   <Cyborg> is it over for day or are they doing more?

   <Cyborg> oh no they hung up

   <Chuck> My understanding is that is end of day, and tomorrow we
   meet together on AGWG's webex.

   <Cyborg> what is the link and what time?

   <Chuck> one moment, grabbing.

   <Cyborg> thank goodness you've been here, or i'd be even more
   lost... lol

   <Chuck> LOL

   <Chuck> [26]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

     [26] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/CSUN_2019

   <Chuck> Here is the specific link to join webex:

   <Chuck> [27]https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

     [27] https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_ag-ftf

   <Chuck> AND...

   <Chuck> 8 - 8:30 PT is "setup", so nothing specific happens
   other than they put together the "call" for us.

   <Chuck> 8:30 PT is when it starts.

   <Chuck> A combined session of AGWG and Silver (again).

   <Cyborg> oh so the afternoon is less specific to Silver?

   <Cyborg> i could skip the aft then?

   <Cyborg> morning is going over the slides and next steps?

   <Chuck> After the morning, AGWG is off on their own again. And
   Silver has it's own. So in the afternoon we would join Silver
   direct.

   <Chuck> And THOSE links are....

   <Chuck>
   [28]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN
   _F2F_Meeting

     [28]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting

   <Cyborg> oh wait i saw this for Silver:

   <Chuck> The specific webex invite page is...

   <Cyborg> 8:30 - noon: New AG WG charter discussion Joint
   discussion led by AG WG chairs in the way you likely already
   have planned. Review latest Silver editor's draft with AG WG If
   time allows and it makes sense to do so, to offer more context
   around where we've ended up. Tuesday afternoon Silver sessions:
   1:00 - 2:30 Strategy and prioritization of content creation
   3:00 - EOD: Project management definition and documentation
   (for now and future work)

   <Chuck> yes.

   <Chuck> And we would join the Silver webex for Tuesday
   afternoon.

   <Cyborg> ok i may or may not be present from 1-3 PM PST

   <Cyborg> see you in the morning! nice meeting you :)

   <Chuck> Maybe I can fill you in if it's really great stuff :-)

   <Chuck> They should be taking notes too.

   <Cyborg> great i hope so, that would be wonderful thanks!

   <Chuck> k, have a good evening.

   <Cyborg> you too! hope to see you in person sometime

   <Lauriat_> trackbot, start meeting

   <trackbot> Meeting: Silver Community Group Teleconference

   <trackbot> Date: 12 March 2019

   <jeanne> David Sloan & Sarah Horton Research on Usabilty of
   WCAG success criteria
   [29]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5oNyVSxTH2mdjJlcE9
   uREx3Sm8

     [29]
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5oNyVSxTH2mdjJlcE9uREx3Sm8

   <Cyborg> is this our room today?

   <Cyborg> where are we this morning?

   <Lauriat_> We've split up our efforts between the AG WG session
   (joint discussion on chartering) and a Silver working session:
   [30]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN
   _F2F_Meeting#Tuesday_morning_joint_sessions:

     [30]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_CSUN_F2F_Meeting#Tuesday_morning_joint_sessions
:

   <Lauriat_> Welcome to join either!

   <Cyborg> i think i just joined the silver one!

   <Cyborg> are we here as well?

   <Cyborg> i hear rustling...

   <Cyborg> thanks for the link.

   <Lauriat_> Just getting started! A couple more folks filtered
   in, so giving a bit of a buffer.

Combined prototype work

   <Lauriat_> Working outline document:
   [31]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

     [31]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

   <LuisG> Here is Lucy's checklist -
   [32]https://www.ucop.edu/electronic-accessibility/_files/wcag-2
   .0-checklist.pdf

     [32]
https://www.ucop.edu/electronic-accessibility/_files/wcag-2.0-checklist.pdf

   <Cyborg> is someone scribing?

   <Cyborg> would be super helpful if someone could scribe what is
   happening in Shawn's room

   <Cyborg> thanks

   <Cyborg> is Shawn's session here? i'm trying to follow both -
   in the other room now but trying to follow your room through
   IRC. is anyone scribing?

   <RedRoxProjects> I don't think so right now

   <Lauriat_> Yep, in here!

   <Cyborg> Hi can we please get a scribe?

   <Cyborg> A scribe would be so appreciated...

   <scribe> Scribe: Jan

Mapping WCAG to Silver

   [33]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

     [33]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

   Shawn: We are starting very high level: Focusing on user needs
   mapping to guidelines, and identifying methods

   SC 1.2.3 Audio Description or Media Alternative (Prerecorded):
   [34]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-or-media-al
   ternative-prerecorded

     [34]
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-or-media-alternative-prerecorded

   Lucy: Icon Fonts are being used as text - we need a method for
   how to use these appropriately

   <JohnRochford> Example of text icons (Font Awesome) =
   [35]https://disabilityinfo.org/advanced-search-4/?search=74074

     [35] https://disabilityinfo.org/advanced-search-4/?search=74074

   <JohnRochford> More examples:
   [36]https://disabilityinfo.org/physicians/azocar-jose-v-m-d/?se
   arch=74074

     [36]
https://disabilityinfo.org/physicians/azocar-jose-v-m-d/?search=74074

   Shawn: This appears to be talking about two different ways to
   provide alternatives - this is the video equivalent of the
   previous requirement - you can provide a transcript or an audio
   description

   SC 1.2.4 Captions (Live) -
   [37]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#captions-live

     [37] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#captions-live

   Shawn: Mirabai Knight, member of White Coat Captioning - they
   do captioning for medical - great resource

   Audio Description (Prerecorded) -
   [38]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-prerecorded

     [38] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-description-prerecorded

   SC 1.2.6 Sign Language (Prerecorded) -
   [39]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sign-language-prerecorded

     [39] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sign-language-prerecorded

   For native signers, sign language is their first language, so
   reading English brings with it all of the issues that people
   learning English as a second language might have.

   <JohnRochford> Example of sign language interpreting to help
   the Deaf comprehend captioning of video content:
   [40]http://bitly.com/ASLdemo

     [40] http://bitly.com/ASLdemo

   SC 1.2.7 Extended Audio Description (Prerecorded) -
   [41]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#extended-audio-description-pr
   erecorded

     [41]
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#extended-audio-description-prerecorded

   SC 1.2.8 Media Alternative (Prerecorded) -
   [42]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#media-alternative-prerecorded

     [42] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#media-alternative-prerecorded

   <Cyborg> where are you all at now? sorry, following the other
   room as it is a very dynamic discussion

   <RedRoxProjects> we are on 1.2.8 SC

   Lucy: We might want to put something in the methods that the
   user should be able to choose to enable or not enable this.

   SC 1.2.9 Audio-only (Live) -
   [43]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-only-live

     [43] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-only-live

   Shawn: This one is clumped in with SC 1.2.1 Audio-only and
   Video-only (Prerecorded), SC 1.2.8 Media Alternative

   SC 1.3.1 Info and Relationships -
   [44]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#info-and-relationships

     [44] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#info-and-relationships

   Shawn: I would like to flag this as something that needs to be
   looked at more closely - it seems like it's part of one method
   within one overarching guideline - we need to evaluate and
   document the user needs

   Lucy: The connections between different types of things need to
   be understood

   Shawn: It's also the overall structure and semantics
   ... I've noted it right now as having it's own stand-alone
   space ... we will fill in the user needs later - have noted
   that semantics need to be visually displayedd.

   SC 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence -
   [45]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#meaningful-sequence

     [45] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#meaningful-sequence

   Shawn: This is something that is inferred by the order it
   occurs

   Lucy: Representation of order is important

   Shri: If the order you're reading something in is important to
   understanding the content, that needs to be understood.

   SC 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics -
   [46]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sensory-characteristics

     [46] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#sensory-characteristics

   Luis and Lucy: Communicate information that can be perceived by
   multiple levels of ability

   Shawn and Lucy: Multiple ways of perceiving and understanding

   Shawn: Cues for understanding and operating

   SC 1.3.4 Orientation -
   [47]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#orientation

     [47] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#orientation

   Lucy: Enable users to view and interact in whatever orientation
   they desire

   SC 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose -
   [48]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#identify-input-purpose

     [48] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#identify-input-purpose

   Shawn: this is narrowing information down to just the user

   expose it to the AT and then the AT can do with it what it
   should.

   Shawn: I'm leaving this on its own even thought I think it is
   related to programmatic order matches visual order, should we
   lump this in now?

   Lucy & Luis: Yes, now.

   Success Criterion 1.3.6 Identify Purpose

   Shawn: yes this is heavily related to semantics

   <Lauriat_> Understanding documentation for Identify Purpose:
   [49]https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/identify-purpos
   e.html

     [49] https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/identify-purpose.html

   Luis: Is this saying emojis need to be accessible?

   <JohnRochford> Effort at a universal symbol set:
   [50]https://thenounproject.com/

     [50] https://thenounproject.com/

   Jan: This is about allowing people who use symbols for
   communication to be able to import their familiar communication
   symbols into the site.

   SC 1.4.1 Use of Color -
   [51]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#use-of-color - added to SC
   1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics

     [51] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#use-of-color

   SC 1.4.2 Audio Control -
   [52]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-control

     [52] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#audio-control

   Shawn: Enagle the userr to control the audio output.

   Lucy: non-consensual sound should not be permitted - it is very
   disconcerting - not everything opens in new tabs, so you can't
   just close the tab

   Shawn: Enable the user to control the audio output
   ... enable the user to initiate audio

   SC 1.4.3 Contrast (Minimum) -
   [53]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#contrast-minimum

     [53] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#contrast-minimum

   Luis: We need to revisit the algorithm that we currently use
   for contrast - we need to do research into contrast minimum and
   contrast maximum

   Shawn: I would even go so far as to say contrast customizable

   Angela: Also people with dyslexia may have trouble with high
   contrast - it might actually make the text move for them

   Lucy: At our University, we did some work with the eye clinic
   on campus and they told us that borders and spacing actually
   help the eyes to relax - is that covered?
   ... we need to bring in people who truly understand vision

   Shawn: We need to do some massive user research into this

   JohnR: Wayne Dick is an expert in this area

   SC 1.4.4 Resize text -
   [54]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#resize-text

     [54] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#resize-text

   Angela: Why does this exclude captions

   Shawn: This is maybe part of content customization

   Luis: Maybe the reason they exclude captions is that you may
   not control the video that you have on your website.

   JohnR: This SC also helps people with cognitive impairments
   because when you enlarge text, it pushes out other content

   Shawn: This SC is kind of a collection of exceptions, so I am
   rewording this to"enable the user to resize text [within
   reasonable limits]"

   Luis: This is kind of in the giant category of personalization
   ... in terms of resizing text, we need to make sure that you
   can resize without loss of content or functionality

   Shawn: I think meeting all of the SCs should only be met as
   long as you don't lose content or functionality

   <Cyborg> just joined again

   Lucy: Low vision users often want to use their vision,
   regardless of the level of magnification they might need

   <Cyborg> can you please post the link of where we are now?
   thanks

   SC 1.4.5 Images of Text -
   [55]https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#images-of-text

     [55] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#images-of-text

   <Cyborg>
   [56]https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/images-of-text.
   html

     [56] https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/images-of-text.html

   <Cyborg> pictograph?

   Shri: One example might be a picture of historical cave drawing

   Cyborg: User stories and maybe before and after demonstrations
   might be good.

   Shawn: We're taking a 20 minute break

   <Cyborg> picture of historical cave drawing = pictograph

   <Lauriat_> With #ag still going strong, we'll pick up and
   continue on here.

   <LuisG> scribe: LuisG

   lauriat: we had just looked at Images of Text; now Contrast
   enhanced
   ... easy, we'll just put it next to Contrast (Minimum)
   ... just a higher contrast minimum
   ... moving on to Low of No background audio
   ... maybe not as related to Audio Control as we thought
   ... I suspect user needs will overlap, but not exclusively the
   same thing
   ... i'm going to ignore the captcha or audio logo for now; this
   sounds more like audio contrast

   Amy: for audio that contains primarily speech...the audio
   doesn't contain background

   <Lauriat_> Working outline document:
   [57]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

     [57]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

   Amy: this is really covering 3 things to do. 1) ensure audio
   doesn't have background sounds, 2) enable user to turn off
   background sounds or 3) ensure a difference of at least 20
   decibels

   lucy: how well researched is this one? this might be very hard
   of hearing/deaf centric, but what about cognitive load?

   lauriat: let's flag this saying it needs research
   ... going to break it up into the three methods

   lucy: I like that it's going to be more best practices or
   practical best practices

   amy: encouraging people to do good things instead of trying to
   achieve a minimum

   lauriat: next one, Visual Presentation
   ... this one has five bullets

   <Lauriat_> Line spacing (leading) is at least space-and-a-half
   within paragraphs, and paragraph spacing is at least 1.5 times
   larger than the line spacing.

   lucy: how about we move to the next SC?

   lauriat: Images of Text (No exception) - let's just put this
   with the other one
   ... reflow we'll also want Wayne for...let's move on
   ... welcome Wayne; to catch you up, we're going through the
   Success Criteria and trying to fit them into the Silver
   structure
   ... the one that triggered the request for your attendance was
   Visual Presentation

   lucy: we got a little bogged down on whether some things were
   consistent or not...we were wondering how to make it a little
   more consistent

   Wayne: yeah, we worked out what the good numbers were

   lucy: the confusion was that it was space or

   lauriat: space-and-a-half

   lucy: but what's a space?

   Wayne: you have a standard line height the browser gives you
   with padding on top and bottom
   ... if you print a page, that's single spacing.
   ... it's a pain in the ass to read if you have bad eyes

   amy: so it's relative to font size

   Wayne: yeah...they call it line-height in CSS

   lucy: would clarify be line spacing?

   corb: line height instead of line spacing

   Wayne: yeah

   lauriat: we have a grouping that is conceptualy around
   customization or adjustment of presentation
   ... it includes orientation, images of text, resize text, etc.
   ... Reflow is kind of a different way of getting to the same
   place
   ... that to mewould be in that same grouping of being able to
   view and interact with content at whatever resolution works
   best
   ... should we move that up into that group?

   Wayne: I think so

   lauriat: I'd like to break Visual Presentation into a few
   methods
   ... is this an "any of these are true" or "all of these are
   true?"

   Wayne: it could be some, but not necessarily all

   lauriat: would the customization of color fit in with this or
   would it be more under contrast

   Wayne: I think in here..addressing text is part of the hardest
   thing for reading

   lauriat: but it feels like a different space. the others deal
   with dimensions; this deals with color depth and differences
   which is more in line with color contrast

   Wayne: that might be where it goes

   lauriat: we have a similar one for low or no background audio
   ... essentially audio contrast, but that also includes
   customization

   amy: it belongs in both

   Wayne: color is the most difficult one...as a priority you have
   to have your text in a color you can use well. if you have to
   give up the other stuff, you can live with it
   ... if I have to read a lot of text in the wrong color my head
   hurts that day
   ... we need to have the idea that there's a priority for color

   lauriat: the user needs around color contrast and user needs
   around customization for spatial rendering are going to overlap
   heavily

   lucy: it's okay to be duplicative

   Corb: does the website have to have the toggle for changing
   colors or should it allow you to adjust the color?

   wayne: right now the new criteria says the browser allows you
   to do it

   lauriat: there's a lot of spatial text rendering; column width
   which is not important if have reflow

   wayne: everyone with low vision had tunnel vision...if you
   didn't have that, you had to blow it up and it became tunnel
   vision
   ... the reflow was kind of the center

   lucy: think of it like looking through a straw

   wayne: exactly right

   lauriat: I'm going to copy these bullet points in as sub
   methods

   amy: the glossary definition of "block" is "more than one
   sentence"

   jan: I like lucy's definition of "continuous text"

   lucy: that definition refers to bullet point

   lauriat: and it would exclude the name of the document being
   super long
   ... I'm going to put a note that it needs further research
   ... and that this is irrelevant if you can reflow the text

   amy: with the bullet points are they all applicable to
   continuous text?
   ... so would it be rendering of continuous text?

   lucy: I think keeping it where it is is good

   lauriat: with continuous text, the third bullet brings up
   spacing between paragraphs, but it might not be continuous text
   ... it could be not just continuous text that this would apply
   to

   lucy: for justified text, would it be "not fully justified" or
   "not left and not right" justified

   wayne: justified common usage is to make left and right margins
   go in straight lines

   John: the problem with full justified is rivers of white

   lucy: can we add the word "full" to it?

   wayne: you coud, but it's not used that way much anymore

   lucy: can we add a note to avoid the "rivers of white?"

   corb: another problem with full justification is having spaces
   around one word on a line

   lauriat: the next one is line spacing (leading); these three
   things are specific directives on rendering without
   customization

   lucy: why do we have leading, but not ending?

   corb: what do you mean by "ending?"

   lucy: below the body before you get to the footer...should
   there be a separate spacing?
   ... from body to footer, from body to additional content

   lauriat: seems more in line with overall intention - between a
   paragraph and next meaningful chunk of stuff, you have
   sufficient line spcing

   lucy: should it be bigger?

   lauriat: paragraph spacing covers that..line spacing is the one
   that says "leading"

   lucy: maybe it's another place to group; line spacing vs
   paragraph spacing

   lauriat: i'm getting that this SC is really two different
   things
   ... here is a set of rules for rending text and
   ... text can be resized...and that's the customization aspect
   ... and that overlaps with the previous one as well as reflow

   wayne: one other things that's customization...letter and word
   spacing

   lucy: this can be great when it's done

   <corbb> Scribe: corbb

   Lauriat: text rendering should be separated
   ... also copying visual presentation into its own space as
   well…visual presentation is in color contrast, orientation,
   resize text, customization of rendering and elsewhere

   …separate from those is what we just talked through (guideline
   placeholder of “text rendering…”.

   Lauriat: Moving on to reflow

   …heavily related to customization of rendering. Startingby
   copying it in there

   <Lauriat_> [breaking for lunch and then we'll start up again in
   a bit]

   <Lauriat_> We'll start up again at 1:00pm.

   Lauriat: Reflow is pretty straightforward. Two related points…

   …We’re isolating the “scrolling in two dimensions”

   Lucy: Let’s go back to the user … “If a user requires the font
   size to increase — they aren’t required to scroll
   horizontally.”

   Wayne: or two-dimensionally for CJK

   Lauriat: Reflow, as we talked about before, put with “other
   customizations of rendering / spacial rendering”

   Lauriat: This is one particular aspect of customization…squish
   down to 320px wide or 256px tall, all is available to the user
   without 2D scrolling

   Lauriat: how can we re-phrase to center this on the user?

   Wayne: content should word-wrap to fit the viewport … Jeanne:
   available space

   John: If scrolling is required, enable user to scroll one way

   <Jan>
   [58]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

     [58]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

   Lauriat: what about 3 dimensions of scrolling? Should we tackle
   that heroe?

   Lucy: spreadsheets?

   Lauriat: macOS Time Machine presents 2d info but you can scroll
   in a third dimension of time … but if everything is zoomed in,
   then you have to travel in 3-dimensions

   …flagging as tackle later

   …now this is in customization of spacial rendering, which goes
   beyond text. If page is within a 356 px wide, then you
   shouldn’t lose page functionality even if content scrolls.
   That’s what i’m trying to collect here is all the things that
   fall within the intention

   Wayne: there are other contexts where meaning of content is 2d
   or 3d. That’s why we put in “tables”…you have to align the
   content to maintain meaning.

   Lauriat: Noted exception in a comment on this method b/c
   haven’t been including exceptions in this exercise. But this is
   solid enough that we should note this in the overall point.

   <Cyborg> where are we now?

   Lauriat: Moving to non-text contrast.

   <Cyborg> can someone post link again please?

   [59]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4

     [59]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4

   Lauriat: Text spacing next

   <Cyborg> can't find it...

   Lauriat: Must allow customization of these attributes

   Wayne: this is what really revewaled need for Silver, as we
   needed all these qualifications

   …spacial rendering for viewport Lauriat: vs. specifically text
   rendering. May want to break into two.

   <Jan>
   [60]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3
   AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

     [60]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit?usp=sharing

   <Cyborg> that one works, but where are we in document?

   <LuisG> basically Shawn is adding content to the document as
   we're discussing

   Lauriat: want to remove qualifier “text style properties” so as
   to highlight platforms that do not support this

   Jeanne: the outlined parameters need research

   Lauriat: Check and validate research on all these. It’s
   potentially in “understanding” docs

   Wayne: we did a lot of calculation to get to these numbers.
   Will share the calculations from MS Word to “em”

   Wayne: should we move reflow with these?

   Lauriat: splitting apart based on technical aspects of them.
   Reflow is very much around viewport size. Lumping together
   viewport rendering and sizing into same bucket.

   Lauriat: moving to final SC in perceivable…content on hover or
   focus.

   Lucy: don’t like mention of “content”

   Lauriat: This is too narrowly focused that even if it follows
   fundamental interaction pattern, might not apply

   Lauriat: first method might be don’t have flyover content. Even
   if this SC is written because ly-over frustrates low vision
   users.

   Jan: in-line glossary definitions in assessments. Problem we
   have is that low-vision users with such high zoom is that as
   you move down, the content disappers.

   Lauriat: When you move mouse over thing that appears; what
   you’re describing is if they move over scroll bar.

   …don’t trigger fly-over on hover or focus, let this be a link
   until the user closes the panel

   Lauriat: agreed; also more mobile friendly

   Lauriat: we should flag that we’re having trouble moving this
   into Silver because we are talking about guidelines covering
   behavior that we don’t want in the first place

   Lauriat: maybe we have one level of method that’s this … and
   then another method for more points that doesn’t use this
   pattern at all

   LuisG: can we keep spirit of it without the letter of it?
   ... the way we meet user need is by making other suggestion,
   which is also including this.

   Wayne: low vision guidelines outline problems of writing
   guidelines. Had to be testable, yes/no, etc. when you go
   through those rules, this is what you get. I strongly support
   idea of user control when this comes up. Part of user need is
   that you can control the flyout, explore the enlarged version.
   Lots of positive actions about how flyovers behave.

   LuisG: we’ll have more of this through the operable criteria.

   Corbb: doesn’t this open up lots of “don’t…” like carousels,
   autoplay

   Lauriat: stick with positive phrasing of don’t display content
   that user hasn’t explicitly requested

   …granted phrasing needs revision

   Lauriat: First item in Operable…keyboard

   Jeanne: this was part of how silver started. Mobile a11y task
   force started as wanting to broaden keyboard to pointer
   devices. Limited by not changing “old” SC so we aded new SC
   around pointer events. So — i propose we broaden keyboard.

   Lucy: user must be able to manipulate or change parts of
   interface in ways including but not limited to … keyboard,
   swiping, clicking, selecting with a switch, etc.

   Lauriat: We have a 2.1 SC that almost gets there…concurrent
   input mechanisms. It’s AAA

   Lauriat: first benefit is users can use the input mechanism
   they want at any time

   Lucy: some devs have said that multiple input devices pose
   security risks.

   Jan: let’s add security needs research and investigation

   LuisG: there would be some overall, general exceptions to all
   methods.

   Wayne: do we need new category: just for security dealing with
   a11y?

   Lauriat: an aspect not covered by 2.1.1 is “timing of
   individual keystrokes”…but timing in that case is related to 2
   other SC under input modalities and motion actuation

   Lauriat: with specific timing for keyboard interactions, that’s
   more at level measured in tenths of seconds up to, say, 10
   seconds. Bank timeouts are more in the nature of 10 minutes.

   Lucy: CAPTCHAs were failing because of path traveled to get to
   a button.

   Lauriat: that’s different…this is the physical interactions
   including verbal bbetween you and the hardware.

   Wayne: speech users who dictate slowly would be same as someone
   who types slowly

   Lauriat: adding two bullets under methods. Fundamental support
   of emchanisms. Second, timing of interactions with input
   mechanisms

   Lauriat: next up … no keyboard trap

   Lucy: user must never be in a situation where input mechanism
   cannot work?

   Lauriat: group with “support input mechanisms” overall.

   Lauriat: the way this is worded, it allows keyboard traps. Only
   talks about movingf away from a component. Say you end up in a
   non-modal dialog but page hasn’t implemented shortcut to move
   from modal to page. Then you’re in a keyboard trap but you can
   move around the modal

   Lauriat: with keyboard trap…rather make this more generic to
   all input nmechanisms.

   Lucy: that doesn’t include how to get out / escape from

   Lauriat: challenge is that WCAG requires element-based wording
   and we’re describing use case.

   LuisG: still need method for keyboard traps. If user can get to
   something with a keyboard, then they should be able to get
   away.

   Lauriat: for now, note to avoid traps … need to word positively
   … and link to non-interference ‘

   Lauriat: Put keyboard no exceptions to keyboard as we already
   ruled out exceptions

   Lauriat: Moving to character key shortcuts.

   Lauriat:problem with this is that it inherently says “don’t do
   this”

   LuisG: three diferent methods, one for each bullet in the SC

   Lauriat:agreed but last one fits in with category of robust

   Luis: and re-map goes with customization

   Lucy: another method we could create is that we need to
   visually display keyboard shortcuts

   Corbb: need to be careful that we don’t use visually

   Lucy: use word discoverable

   Lauriat: going to make two guideline levels. 1 customizability
   of interactions and 2 interacitons on focus specific to
   component

   Break for 30 min

Project Planning

   <Lauriat_> Silver Project Plan working document:
   [61]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZ
   YkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

     [61]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

   <Jan>
   [62]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZ
   YkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

     [62]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

   <Jan>
   [63]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZ
   YkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

     [63]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

   <Lauriat_> Silver Project Plan working document:
   [64]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZ
   YkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

     [64]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zFgVcDUMSOrZ5nnGRocs2pZYkqOhwdyMU_Z62_CedbQ/edit

   <Lauriat_> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 13 March 2019 00:39:12 UTC

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