RE: Minutes from the Silver meeting of 24 July 2018

Thank you, Shawn.

My regrets as I have a large deadline at noon.

Regards,
Jennifer



Jennifer Chadwick
Lead Accessibility Strategist, North America

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From: Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 10:36 AM
To: Silver TF <public-silver@w3.org>
Subject: Minutes from the Silver meeting of 24 July 2018

Formatted minutes:
https://www.w3.org/2018/07/24-silver-minutes.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2018%2F07%2F24-silver-minutes.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243455445&sdata=UCBPsbbAYC6BLDoO9sLYqyU07ty7atZcDpJvM8za0pU%3D&reserved=0>

Text of minutes:

   [1]W3C



      [1] http://www.w3.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243465455&sdata=T69MbJkG4zvYZyuflU8aQ%2FlTcpRvOGNki8UsoDBVvfA%3D&reserved=0>



                               - DRAFT -



                 Silver Community Group Teleconference



24 Jul 2018



Attendees



   Present

          Lauriat, jemma, mikeCrabb, KimD, shari,

          AngelaAccessForAll, jeanne, jennison, jan, kirkwood,

          Charles



   Regrets



   Chair

          SV_MEETING_CHAIR



   Scribe

          mikeCrabb



Contents



     * [2]Topics

         1. [3]Plain language

         2. [4]Style guide

         3. [5]IA Doc

         4. [6]Plain language

         5. [7]Silver Basics doc

         6. [8]Requirements comments

     * [9]Summary of Action Items

     * [10]Summary of Resolutions

     __________________________________________________________



Plain language



   jeanne: We have a new plain language prototype available in

   gitHub



   [11]https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/PlainLanguage/site/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fsilver%2Fprototypes%2FPlainLanguage%2Fsite%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243475459&sdata=Q3lZX8yJLY8hmpcIP%2BX27xIpeyViZWVzyMQEDK68kVg%3D&reserved=0>

   index.html



     [11] https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/PlainLanguage/site/index.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fsilver%2Fprototypes%2FPlainLanguage%2Fsite%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243475459&sdata=LSa4HO%2FqKakVKOxnfWlPl%2FH9jKGUK%2FJYQNsoKFO5TaI%3D&reserved=0>



   Last week, Kim asked that we have a version of the plain

   language that looks like the flavor prototype with tabs to

   switch back and forth to compare between different versions



   Take a look at 2.4.10 (Sections Headings) we have 4 different

   alternatives



   [12]https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/PlainLanguage/site/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fsilver%2Fprototypes%2FPlainLanguage%2Fsite%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243485464&sdata=4wEEDKWK4%2FBoHGPof5Apa2TgTs3s%2Flv9vVfxMsZUhGk%3D&reserved=0>

   2-4-10/index.html



     [12] https://w3c.github.io/silver/prototypes/PlainLanguage/site/2-4-10/index.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fsilver%2Fprototypes%2FPlainLanguage%2Fsite%2F2-4-10%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243495474&sdata=qz7ayUbL6334sqhAJ3cYYJ6kUm1A%2Fxu%2FDJJOLBQ559I%3D&reserved=0>



   Important thing here is to look at what people did and see how

   they did it



   scribe: Alt 1 is very similar to WCAG2, Alt 2 is another layout

   including Why, Who it Helps, How, Exceptions, Technical Tips,

   and Examples

   ... Alt 3 is what you need to know, what to do, what not to do

   and examples

   ... Alt 4 is very simple one with some notes

   ... 4 possibilities here, hoping that we get some more



   Angela: I haven't received any more and am still working on one



   Jeanne: So how do we evaluate this? We need something to give

   the IA people to put into their prototypes so that the right

   language is going through. We now have something that is

   testable, so how do we go about doing this?



   <Lauriat> MikeCrabb: The first thing we need to do is define

   what the definition of "best" is. Someone might say that they

   like #4 because it's easy to understand, while someone else

   might say that they don't because it doesn't give them concrete

   things to do.



   Jan: Do you think that we could look at how this relates to

   previous comments/critisisms that we have had. We might need to

   do tasks or just get opinions, but we need to make sure tha we

   are not ignoring what the redesign is for



   Isobelle: One concern that I have is that part of the audience

   are not currently engaged, are we getting criticism from people

   that are using this all the time, so how do we get in touch

   with those that don't use it?



   Jan: I agree



   Jeanne: Yes, need to do both. Research what we have and look at

   how to find audience that don't currently use WCAG, any ideas

   on how to do this?



   <kirkwood> I think COGA might be a good idea



   Isobelle: Targeted focusing of people, grass roots approach.

   Look at community of people (service community?), trying to get

   a cross section of poeple, what are the challenges that people

   have and also a call to the #a11y community

   ... university incubators are a good place to look, these are

   people who are looking to get things started



   Jenison: Maybe, but it can be difficult to get their attention

   if they are trying to get a lot more done



   mikeCrabb: I'll reach out to uni incubators etc.



   Isabelle: I can look around Toronto and find links there



   Jeanne: Lets get all the information and get this together for

   next week. Need to work on developing a list of tests



   Kim: Is the goal here to decide on 1 format or is it to gather

   information?



   Jeanne: Start with general information and then refine

   prototypes based on this?

   ... can create a googleForm for this and then tweet that out



   Isabelle: Can include demographics on this to get more

   information about the community that is taking part. Will give

   more information about the different backgrounds of people

   taking part



   Jeanne: Drop me an email with what questions should be in this

   and we can talk about this more on Friday



Style guide



IA Doc



   <jeanne> MikeCr: MarkT did a document where he sorted the WCAG

   2.1 guidance into Categories, like Focus, Images/Media, etc.



   <kirkwood> very good point about limiting to screen size, and

   augmented erality!



   <jeanne> ... This is very interesting approach



   <kirkwood> erality/reality



   <jeanne> ... it could be a good card-sorting exercise



   [13]https://twitter.com/mike_crabb/status/1021700008612126721<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fmike_crabb%2Fstatus%2F1021700008612126721&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243495474&sdata=wVMtXD5Fal2Kiu7pk8%2Fus1o5%2BSsqw06d20L6kDJTywI%3D&reserved=0>



     [13] https://twitter.com/mike_crabb/status/1021700008612126721<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fmike_crabb%2Fstatus%2F1021700008612126721&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243505478&sdata=QYOqEGEyalab5wqKhfiF4bALECEDHyW0jDOBFa%2FjT4A%3D&reserved=0>



   <jeanne> Jeanne: Also include technologies that are beyond web,

   so we make sure we are thinking broadly.



   <jeanne> Mike: I have a student doing a project that could be

   adapted to look at these issues in augmented reality.



   <Charles> unable to join call



   Jeanne: Lots of new poeple have joined the community group,

   hoping that we can get some new material from poeple from this



   Jenison: Im working with Sean to coordinate a meeting with

   people that are interested in IA

   ... hoping to hear back from those people today/tomorrow to

   start looking at this

   ... I'll forward the notes that I sent yesterday

   ... hoping that summer holidays wont impact but we should get

   on with this even not with 100% of people on it



Plain language



   <jeanne> zakim take up item 4



   <jeanne>

   [14]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b_v525dP8bw---yEYE1LxZF<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1b_v525dP8bw---yEYE1LxZF&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243505478&sdata=z1zjJa4WLdfsIHQ%2BIupOxWoYj%2FqUci8tRtNPyW%2BS3Q8%3D&reserved=0>

   5Ek16br_4Exf5x0-kBjA/edit



     [14] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b_v525dP8bw---yEYE1LxZF5Ek16br_4Exf5x0-kBjA/edit<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1b_v525dP8bw---yEYE1LxZF5Ek16br_4Exf5x0-kBjA%2Fedit&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243515488&sdata=Uib2V3L%2F5G5I1ocot%2Fqgi%2Bm%2F4z7S1mqEqHJnTDhXZxQ%3D&reserved=0>



   This is the document that we can give to people as we are

   getting a lot of new people coming into the group.



   Jeanne: Can also be used for people in the WCAG WG that are

   looking at silver and not knowing how we are working, please

   comment on this

   ... talking about the history and an overview of the research

   results, what you can expect re culture of meetings and how we

   are working, things we are currently working on, a reading

   list, and a relationship between W3C and WCAG 2.0



   zakim take up item 5



Silver Basics doc



Requirements comments



   <jemma> *rapid fire ;-)



   <jeanne> Shawn: Lots of comments on a Github issue



   <Lauriat> [15]https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/22<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F22&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243525492&sdata=s3IqiqtkP5ruW6ghev0W6yY6U1WZvwHH2kKmcFvMJFg%3D&reserved=0>



     [15] https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/22<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F22&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243525492&sdata=s3IqiqtkP5ruW6ghev0W6yY6U1WZvwHH2kKmcFvMJFg%3D&reserved=0>



   Lauriat: Quite a thread on the requirements for an issue that

   has been opened



   Jeanne: Survey due in at end of August, typically the way this

   works is that we send out something to say that it has been

   revised and people can give comments



   <Lauriat> [16]https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/25<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F25&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243535502&sdata=qkTruN9%2Fa9uAY%2BCmLQhy%2Flwme1cEkJiZhwG1tsXyVHw%3D&reserved=0>



     [16] https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/25<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F25&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243545507&sdata=goxwaBtT6%2FxS%2BMdDjrafLbq0oME5mvXkzaAL9AB5qDQ%3D&reserved=0>



   <Lauriat> [17]https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/19<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F19&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243545507&sdata=M7BgIVsfoKBLXIjm5Q%2BXvsWMULY%2F7CaSbRXa%2FkQm5Vs%3D&reserved=0>



     [17] https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/19<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fissues%2F19&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243555511&sdata=jIJ%2BoSdRNFlqbf7UANWgORtcaqd26NhdpaabFBJw7%2B0%3D&reserved=0>



   Lauriat: Another comment that was added that looked at the

   introduction and if it can provide more context, very good one

   ... we came to the conclusion that it raised a lot of good

   points that could be incorporated in the requirements



   Jeanne: Can anyone work on drafting the language that Mike is

   asking us to do, and then we can look at it on Friday?



   Lauriat: Can send out something to the community group and get

   people there involved



   <Lauriat> Pull request:

   [18]https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/24<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fpull%2F24&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243565521&sdata=kK9MJnkf6w39w1%2BhAL5Ri1TIzKyXlulupzV2f9FgubA%3D&reserved=0>



     [18] https://github.com/w3c/silver/pull/24<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2Fpull%2F24&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243565521&sdata=kK9MJnkf6w39w1%2BhAL5Ri1TIzKyXlulupzV2f9FgubA%3D&reserved=0>



   Jeanne: Other thing is a pull request with suggested changes

   from alastc



   <jeanne>

   [19]https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.git<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fservices.w3.org%2Fhtmldiff%3Fdoc1%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fw3c.git&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243575525&sdata=pZHwPbECuSBivMaMaQD7ekZlTv1B1I9trVUlMECavss%3D&reserved=0>

   hub.io<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhub.io&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243585535&sdata=4ekrxN9tQF0aWQMkUCWSkie8KEugPWVDoVUvQSB%2FKC0%3D&reserved=0>%2Fsilver%2Frequirements%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Flabs.w3.or

   g%2Fspec-generator%2F%3Ftype%3Drespec%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fraw

   git.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgit.com&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243585535&sdata=V4T8wGpx3OczYdV%2BEplkEOqG5fVlcS%2Fnel2TzUNs5IE%3D&reserved=0>%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2F9ae17fac69f4cae1d2fa0124340bc652bbdebf

   05%2Frequirements%2Findex.html



     [19] https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https://w3c.github.io/silver/requirements/&doc2=https://labs.w3.org/spec-generator/?type=respec&url=https://rawgit.com/w3c/silver/9ae17fac69f4cae1d2fa0124340bc652bbdebf05/requirements/index.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fservices.w3.org%2Fhtmldiff%3Fdoc1%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fsilver%2Frequirements%2F%26doc2%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Flabs.w3.org%2Fspec-generator%2F%3Ftype%3Drespec%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fsilver%2F9ae17fac69f4cae1d2fa0124340bc652bbdebf05%2Frequirements%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjcha%40siteimprove.com%7C52baf16102ba400f7c6208d5f172eae5%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636680398243595540&sdata=NgceRa%2FNmNb1rDwvQgQTN0HzpXLk5eXXvId0p0AEFUk%3D&reserved=0>



   Jeanne: he wants to add a sentence before conformance model:



   <jemma> "There are several areas for exploration in how

   conformance can work. These opportunities may or may not be

   incorporated. Then need to work together, and that interplay

   will be governed by the design principles. "



   <jeanne> jeanne: It's a little more hesitant than I like, but I

   could be ok with it.



   Lauriat: Theres another thread on github with a request to

   backtrack and not do measurability, if the model doesnt work or

   there is to much pushback then we can fall back to strict

   testability

   ... nothing is set in stone, could be down to prototyping but

   language that we want to do it may be too much for some. The

   pull request is a compromise between the two extremes. We are

   going to investigate these things and explore these things, it

   will be governed by desgn principles but these may or may not

   be incorporated.



   Jeanne: I'm ok with adding the first sentence, please +1 or -1

   if you approve/dis



   +1



   <jeanne> +1



   <KimD> +1 (but not gleefully)



   <AngelaAccessForAll> +1



   <kirkwood> +1



   <Lauriat> +1 (likewise with lack of glee)



   Jeanne: Next one -

   ... Some requirements may be more important for certain

   websites and be very dependent on context. For example using

   plain language terminology in navigation is very difficult to

   test reliably given the constraints and context an ecommerce

   site has compared to a public sector website. Providing for a

   process to follow and document may be more appropriate for some

   requirements than either measurable or task-based approaches.



   Lauriat: I agree with sentiment of this but not sure on wording



   Jeanne: Lets work on wording and talk about it on friday



   mikeCrabb: I'll put a PR for it on gitHub



   Jeanne: Working on a method for getting the difference between

   pull requests shown in a meeting more easily

   ... last one on Technology Neutral

   ... "The guidelines should cover all web technologies available

   to users. It is likely that a layer of the guidance will be

   written to be technology neutral, but the guidelines should be

   able to include criteria that do not work across all

   technologies"

   ... we have a lot more on this since we wrote this initially



   Lauriat: agree with sentiment but needs different wording



   <jeanne> -1 because of the scope issues



   <jeanne> +1 for the layer of technologies part.



   Lauriat: Get rid of first sentence and reword second



   <KimD> -1 (it's very restrictive)



   Lauriat: this is focusing on things in a negative way, we want

   to look towards inclusive methods and not -ve



   <Lauriat> trackbot, end meeting



Summary of Action Items



Summary of Resolutions



   [End of minutes]