W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-semweb-ui@w3.org > November 2007

Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan

From: Max Wilson <mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:15:47 +0000
Message-Id: <2114E04E-117F-4497-A46D-2638343C736D@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, paola.dimaio@gmail.com, emmanuelle@sidar.org, "T.Heath" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>, SW-forum Web <semantic-web@w3.org>, public-semweb-ui@w3.org
To: "<editor@content-wire.com>" <editor@content-wire.com>
This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to output any  
user based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor  
list but is free to view by anyone. Contact details for getting an  
editor account are on the front page. Roberto, and now Paola, along  
with many some now have accounts.

Max Wilson

On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com> <editor@content- 
wire.com> wrote:

>
> Ivan and all
> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations,  
> shutingdown in a few minutes...
>
> Preliminary list of issues on the fly:
>
> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily RDF based  
> but Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr  too) that  
> look as if they are promising and useful  but little or no  
> 'usability good practices' is in place to make such applications  
> useful to those who have never seen one before  (ie  the majority  
> of the intended users)
>
> People (non developers) dont know
> a) what to do with theb
> b) how to do it
>
> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once existed about  
> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term
> of internet usability/accessibility, so that now even  grandparents  
> can manage to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a  
> similar phase with semantic web applications, we (non developers,  
> otherwise intelligent - users with different operational business  
> and other IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use them  
> and give feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a  
> little helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor  
> usability
>
> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists  
> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as they become  
> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase)
>
> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of  
> tutorials and support for people who would like to use the
> things, as well as for developers who dont know what seem to  
> understand what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear  
> mysterious in appearance and functionality to the uninitated.
>
>
> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list of  
> 'issues' with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is  
> the cause of lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that  
> could increase usability, including possibly some futuristic web  
> based application/service to collect all the user comments from  
> semantic test environments and gather them in a repository that  
> could be used to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as  
> guidelines (help the developers develop more friendly tools  
> following appropriate guidelines). Anything else that interested  
> contributors feel should be added/discussed
>
>
> Wiki
>
> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot creat an  
> account (the option login/create account only leads to
> a login screen, not a create account one) I have already written to  
> Robert about it
>
> Could not find conference wiki
>
> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can  
> set one up quickly on the way to the airport
> and post the contents of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto  
> otherwise, would be fine for me
>
> Thanks Ivan and all
> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail
>
>
> look forward
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>
> To: <editor@content-wire.com>
> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org>; "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>; "'SW- 
> forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
>
>
> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto  
> referred to
> an existing page already. Whichever people feel is better.
>
> I would still like to understand the issues first.
>
> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC
> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc
> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have not
> found any.
>
> Ivan
>
> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours...
>
> editor@content-wire.com wrote:
>> Dear Ivan and all
>>
>> thanks for the interest in this issue
>> it will be good to meet
>>
>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some  
>> momentum, and
>> considering I cannot quite help with the debugging of the  
>> applications
>> just as yet , I ll be happy to help foster a plan
>>
>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web  
>> where I
>> can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki elsewhere? Thanks
>>
>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are
>> Emmanuelle Sidar
>> Tom Heath  Open U
>> Knud Hinner Deri
>> M Daquin Open U
>> Hugh Glaser
>> Roberto Garcia
>> J Chetwynd
>> Richard Cygniak
>> Ivan Herman
>> (update this list if I missed anyone)
>> Adrian Walker sent some notes (havent read yet)
>> [1]
>> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e- 
>> Government_Presentation.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall keep posted  
>> of any
>> discussions and outcomes on list,  I look forward to be meeting
>> everybody in the next few days
>>
>> Tom Heath suggests a  BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, which may be
>> fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so anyone  
>> who
>> can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get details/directions
>>
>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal get together  
>> before
>> Thursday an be arranged, for those who still have a spare slot and  
>> may
>> have left by Thursday -  email your availability and/or just catch  
>> me (
>> I ll try to wear a tshirt
>> that says SEMANTIC USABILITY  if I can get it printed on the fly)
>>
>> i am best contacted via  paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE gmail.com,
>> but cannot post to list from there
>>
>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the  
>> conference
>> message board about details
>>
>> Look forward!
>> Thanks a lot for interest
>>
>> Cheers
>> Paola Di Maio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>
>> To: <editor@content-wire.com>
>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org>; "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>; "'SW- 
>> forum
>> Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan
>>
>>
>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and  
>> whether
>> W3C is in position to do something about those.
>>
>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long time
>> (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never get enough member
>> enthusiasm to start something more serious in the area.... (except  
>> for
>> the web accessibility area which probably includes a subset of the
>> general usability issues).
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> editor@content-wire.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next week, this is
>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone  
>>> else on
>>> this list is going to be in Busan, and has an interest in  
>>> Usability and
>>> Accessibility and related issues, please mail me online and I ll  
>>> post
>>> details of any time/place suggested for an informal get together to
>>> scheme something up
>>> cheers
>>> Paola Di Maio
>>> www.mfu.ac.th
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y  
>>> Restrepo"
>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>; <editor@content-wire.com>;
>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM
>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Tom and all,
>>>
>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you all
>>> with the
>>> same brush".
>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics applications, which  
>>> are nice,
>>> intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; And yet not often  
>>> worry about
>>> the accessibility of his creatures.
>>>
>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in some
>>> similar,
>>> so maybe we can work on it togheter.
>>>
>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that the W3C has some
>>> type of
>>> responsability on it too. And I'm sure that they can do something
>>> about it.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Emmanuelle
>>>
>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo  Fundaciรณn Sidar
>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org
>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org
>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
>>>
>>> -----Mensaje original-----
>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk]
>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04
>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org; editor@content-wire.com; SW-forum Web
>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>
>>> Hi Emmanuelle,
>>>
>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please don't
>>> "tar us
>>> all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many people working in the
>>> Semantic Web field who care deeply about understanding, and  
>>> catering to,
>>> the
>>> needs of human users (yes, you and I agree, humans are the  
>>> Semantic Web's
>>> ultimate target audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2]  
>>> and the
>>> next in the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this  
>>> commitment.
>>>
>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't always get the
>>> recognition
>>> it deserves in the community. Some additional initiatives in this  
>>> area
>>> would
>>> be a great idea I think :)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Tom.
>>>
>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush
>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/
>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org on behalf of Emmanuelle  
>>> Gutiรฉrrez y
>>> Restrepo
>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM
>>> To: editor@content-wire.com; 'SW-forum Web'
>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>
>>> Hi "PDM",
>>>
>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic  
>>> web" and
>>> maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't understand  
>>> why the
>>> people working on it don't care about accessibility. The semantic  
>>> web is
>>> nothing if can't be useful for the humans.
>>>
>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think that complain  
>>> with the
>>> WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web application.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo         Fundaciรณn Sidar
>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR                  www.sidar.org
>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org
>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47
>>>
>>>
>>>  _____
>>>
>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org [mailto:semantic-web- 
>>> request@w3.org] En
>>> nombre de editor@content-wire.com Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de
>>> noviembre de
>>> 2007 11:40
>>> Para: SW-forum Web
>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons
>>>
>>>
>>> I must say something
>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of  
>>> them , but
>>> they are new I am not sure what to expect exactly. What should it  
>>> do?
>>> How do
>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it  
>>> should look?
>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into account etc.
>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few clicks, then  
>>> I lose
>>> interest, must move on
>>>
>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive  
>>> interface
>>> (not
>>> bad in fact) although a few more explanations and how to's would be
>>> good. I
>>> also got an error when I tried it (different from the error  
>>> below) not
>>> sure
>>> what to do next
>>>
>>> All this to suggest  a forum is created to handle usability of  
>>> semantic
>>> applications, where we 'users' can report our experiences and get  
>>> some
>>> help
>>> in running/understanding the stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and  
>>> user
>>> tests
>>> already running on semantic applications, may be most productive if
>>> handled
>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the developers  
>>> who are
>>> likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to speak  
>>> different
>>> languages)
>>>
>>> thoughts?
>>> cheers
>>> PDM
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org>
>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>> Cc: Linking Open Data <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu>  ;
>>> SW-forum
>>> Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>  ; Ian   
>>> <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>> Millard
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available
>>>
>>>
>>> Umm ,,, in
>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/ 
>>> person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea I
>>> get
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Request for
>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/ 
>>> person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733eaabout
>>>
>>>
>>> under the hood
>>> Label Request for
>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/ 
>>> person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea
>>> Status 200
>>> StatusText OK
>>> Accept-ranges bytes
>>> Connection close
>>> Content-length 2005
>>> Content type text/xml
>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT
>>> Etag "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00"
>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server Apache/2.0.52  
>>> (Red
>>> Hat)
>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Something funny about the XML:  Line 2: doctype broken.  Shoud  
>>> not be a
>>> doctype.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
>>> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [
>>>        <!ENTITY rdf 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY extn 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'>
>>>        <!ENTITY resist
>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY resex
>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY courseware
>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'>
>>>        <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'>
>>>        <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'>
>>> ]>
>>> <rdf:RDF
>>>        xmlns:rdf="&rdf;"
>>>        xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;"
>>>        xmlns:owl="&owl;"
>>>        xmlns:akt="&akt;"
>>>        xmlns:akts="&akts;"
>>>        xmlns:extn="&extn;"
>>>        xmlns:wiki="&wiki;"
>>>        xmlns:resist="&resist;"
>>>        xmlns:resex="&resex;"
>>>        xmlns:courseware="&courseware;"
>>>        xmlns:dc="&dc;"
>>>        xmlns:dct="&dct;"
>>>        >
>>>        <owl:Ontology rdf:about="">
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [....]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
>
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>
>
>

----------------------------------
n - max wilson
e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk
w - www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r
t - +44 (0) 2380 598367
----------------------------------
Received on Saturday, 10 November 2007 10:20:51 GMT

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