W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org > December 2007

Re: Experiment Ontology

From: frank gibson <Frank.Gibson@ncl.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:46:41 +0000
Message-ID: <65a299a90712120746k1a159584u588738595efc6949@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Miller, Michael D (Rosetta)" <Michael_Miller@rosettabio.com>
Cc: "Susie M Stephens" <STEPHENS_SUSIE_M@lilly.com>, public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org, "Bill Bug" <wbug@ncmir.ucsd.edu>
Hi

>
>
> > The folks at Lilly who developed the ontology did review a number of
> > existing ontologies, but they didn't meet our needs.
>

>From an OBI point of view it would be very interesting to know why this was
the case. What was lacking that prevented you from using it?

Cheers

Frank






>
> this is the hard part of getting standardization accepted.  "but they
> didn't meet our needs" will always seem to be true because the most
> expedient way to organize ones data is based on how it is already organized.
>  no standard will look exactly like the way a particular organization choose
> to organize their information.
>
> looking at the ExperimentOntology it is pretty easy to deduce how Lilly
> views experiment organization and i can tell you from experience that it is
> not like any of the pharma or biotechs way of doing things that i've seen in
> gene expression.  in fact, there are few details that overlap amongst any of
> them.
>
> but there are common themes and we've been relatively successful in
> mapping to MAGE (which is UML, not an ontology, but that's a different
> discussion) for all these different organizations in order to import and
> export out of our product.
>
> the trick is not in changing your ways but in mapping to a common language
> and then unmapping back into your datastore.  it actually looks like it
> wouldn't take much to map into FuGE with ontology terms coming from OBI for
> the most part.
>
> cheers,
> michael
>
> Michael Miller
> Lead Software Developer
> Rosetta Biosoftware Business Unit
> www.rosettabio.com
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: public-semweb-lifesci-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:public-semweb-lifesci-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of
> > Susie M Stephens
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 9:21 AM
> > To: Bill Bug
> > Cc: public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org hcls
> > Subject: Re: Experiment Ontology
> >
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > Thanks for all of your great feedback. :-)
> >
> > The folks at Lilly who developed the ontology did review a number of
> > existing ontologies, but they didn't meet our needs. I don't
> > have the full
> > list of ontologies that they explored, but they definitely
> > took a look at
> > OBI. We are very interested in working with the community to further
> > develop the ontology, and are in the process of scheduling a
> > call with some
> > of the OBI folks.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Susie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >              Bill Bug
> >
> >              <wbug@ncmir.ucsd.
> >
> >              edu>
> >           To
> >                                        Susie Stephens
> >
> >              12/06/2007 11:16
> > <STEPHENS_SUSIE_M@LILLY.COM>
> >              PM
> >           cc
> >                                        Matthias Samwald
> > <samwald@gmx.at>,
> >
> > "public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org hcls"
> >
> > <public-semweb-lifesci@w3.org>, Kei
> >                                        Cheung
> > <kei.cheung@yale.edu>,
> >                                        "Karen (NIH/NIDA) [E]
> > Skinner"
> >
> > <kskinner@nida.nih.gov>, Alan
> >                                        Ruttenberg
> >
> >
> > <alanruttenberg@gmail.com>
> >
> >      Subject
> >                                        Re: Experiment
> > Ontology
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Susie,
> >
> > We certainly do need an "Experiment Ontology" - or Ontology
> > of Biomedical
> > Investigation (OBI).
> >
> > I believe Matthias, Michael, and Kei have all made exactly
> > the points I
> > think are most important to consider:
> > 1) Matthias's comments
> > Are you following "best practices" in creating the ontology.
> > I believe
> > Matthias gives many instructive examples on how to adjust
> > what is here to
> > bring it much more in sync with the emerging "best practices" that are
> > coming out of the community development surrounding a variety of OBO
> > Foundry ontologies. Matthias also makes the point that its
> > important to
> > seek to re-use (or directly contribute to) the emerging community
> > ontologies to cover the required domains. In the case of
> > this particular
> > Experiment Ontology, the ontologies to consider are Ontology
> > of Biomedical
> > Investigation (OBI), the OBO Relations Ontology, the Gene Ontology
> > (specifically the Molecular Function and Cellular Component
> > branches, the
> > latter of which is designed to capture components down to the level of
> > macromolecular complexes), the Sequence Ontology, Protein
> > Ontology (nascent
> > - but proceeding rapidly), the Cell Ontology - at a minimum.
> > As many on
> > this list know - and I'm certain the talented folks at Lilly
> > who invested
> > time in assembling this ontology also learned - many of these
> > are not fully
> > ready for prime-time, and/or may not FULLY cover the breadth
> > and depth of
> > the domains a specific application requires. However, if one
> > doesn't seek
> > to work with these community efforts, you cannot expect to achieve the
> > ultimately goal, which is to make your data maximally "semantically
> > sticky", so as to ensure the least amount of custom logic and
> > human effort
> > will be required to get the most value from your data. Otherwise, you
> > stand the chance of creating what may be a useful ontology
> > that meets your
> > specific requirements (as has been true of "investigation"-oriented
> > ontologies that have come before such as the MAGE Ontology,
> > ExperiBase,
> > EXPO, myGRID KAVE, etc.), but don't help the community at-large to
> > appropriately re-use your data. In each case, these ontologies or KR
> > frameworks have been extremely useful in the local
> > application context for
> > which they were constructed, but they cannot be effectively
> > employed as the
> > basis for semantically-driven integration across data sets
> > that may not be
> > able to accept the constraints (or lack thereof) of this
> > application-oriented ontology.
> > Would you know off-hand, Susie, whether the folks who worked on this
> > ontology at Lilly have both reviewed the relevant community
> > efforts cited
> > above and/or have sought to interact with those groups to get
> > some input on
> > how best to meet the overall requirements that underlie this
> > particular
> > Experiment Ontology with the minimal required effort and in a
> > manner that
> > could help to ensure Lilly's sunk investment could be of
> > benefit to us all.
> >
> > 2)Michael'scomments
> > It's very helpful to know what the target is when it comes to
> > exporting/exchanging the actual data. As Michael points out,
> > a great deal
> > of work has gone into the production of FuGE (and MaGE before
> > it) to come
> > up with the appropriate division of labor between the
> > semantically-opaque,
> > syntactical requirements as represented in a data model such
> > as MaGE or
> > FuGE and the explicit semantics as captured in the ontology.
> > For those
> > using FuGE, as Michael states, in the realm of syntax, the
> > intention for
> > FuGE is to provide a shared structure for universal elements such as
> > biomaterials, experiment populations/pools/groups, protocol details,
> > reagents details, etc.. Built on that shared, generic foundation, any
> > specific discipline - e.g., microarray expression, GC-MS,
> > FISH, MRI, etc. -
> > can sub-class FuGE components and add what additional detail
> > required in
> > their discipline. In parallel with this effort on data
> > structure, the OBI
> > ontology cooperative seeks to provide that same foundation
> > for the shared
> > semantic domains, and a clear set of recommended practices for how to
> > re-use entities from other OBO Foundry ontologies such as
> > ChEBI, Sequence
> > Ontology, Protein Ontology, OBO Cell, Organism Taxonomy (OWL
> > versions of
> > NCBI Tax), etc. to specify the critical biomedical entities and their
> > complex relations. As I say above, these are works in
> > progress. For those
> > of us who must have something working now, the recommended
> > practice is to
> > actively participate in these projects with an eye toward
> > following their
> > practice - and replacing any "proxy" you create in the
> > interim with the
> > community ontology, when it is ready for use. This is what
> > we have done in
> > the BIRN ontology BIRNLex. We actually have an OWL module called
> > "BIRNLex-OBI-Proxy.owl" which we fully intend to replace with
> > OBI entities,
> > when they are ready for use. We also have
> > "BIRNLex-Investigation.owl" that
> > builds on this "proxy" to cover entities BIRN researchers
> > must capture. We
> > expect to eventually see the contents of
> > "BIRNLex-Investigation" in OBI in
> > some form. We intend to "contribute" those elements from
> > this OWL file
> > directly to OBI, when OBI is ready for them, and we have the time work
> > through this migration process.
> >
> > 3) Kei's comments
> > Examples - examples - examples. This is critical. Working
> > through the
> > example Kei cites from the NIH Neuroscience Microarray Consortium is a
> > wonderful way to determine whether:
> > - there are existing community ontologies that can meet the KR and
> > processing requirements
> > - where the gaps are in those community ontologies
> > - whether the ontology you are creating effectively fills
> > those gaps (if it
> > does, that makes it very clear how the community effort can
> > make effective
> > use of your ontology)
> > In regards to Gene Lists, Kei is certainly correct. If these
> > are captured
> > through algorithmic means, it's critical to capture the
> > details on that
> > algorithm - typically both the version of the algorithm as well as the
> > version of the data repository you ran it against.
> > Also - where gene entities are concerned - there is ongoing
> > work between
> > the GO groups, the Sequence Ontology, and the Protein Ontology that is
> > particularly targeted toward capturing the specific relations
> > between types
> > of genomic sequence elements and types of biologically active
> > protein-based
> > molecules (e.g., macromolecular complexes composed of a collection of
> > proteins in a variety of post-translationally modified states
> > - e.g., GPC
> > receptors, ion channels, transporters, pathway enzymes, etc.
> > - i.e., Rx
> > drug targets). These are the details we'll all require in order to do
> > round-trip pharmacogenetics - i.e.,effects of genetic constructs on
> > targetsusceptibilityto drugs - AND - the ways in which
> > drugs ultimately
> > alter macromolecular complexes by leading to changes in gene
> > expression.
> >
> > Just my $0.02 filtering on these helpful comments from
> > Matthias, Michael,
> > and Kei.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Bill
> >
> > On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Kei Cheung wrote:
> >
> >
> >       This is great!
> >
> >       I have a microarray experiment description (that has to do with
> >       Alzheimer Disease) extracted from NINDS microarray consortium:
> >
> >
> > http://arrayconsortium.tgen.org/np2/viewProject.do?action=view
> > Project&projectId=433773
> >
> >       I just wonder how this example would fit this
> > experiment ontology (as
> >       well as others such as OBI) As shown in this example, we record
> >       information such as organ type, organ region, cell type
> > (layer II
> >       pyramidal neuron), etc. NINDS microarry consortium uses
> > different
> >       array platforms (e.g., agilent, Affymetrix, and cDNA)
> > for different
> >       organisms so one may need to divide chips into groups
> > corresponding
> >       to different platform types. Each group can then be
> > further divided
> >       into subgroups corresponding to different organisms.
> >
> >       We also would like to capture gene lists (not the raw
> > gene lists but
> >       the ones (much shorter) that indicate what genes are over/under
> >       expressed under certain experimental conditions). Such
> > gene lists
> >       would usually be extracted from the literature. Also
> > the analysis
> >       package (including version) that was used to generate a
> > gene list
> >       should be identified. One possible use of these gene lists is to
> >       compare them to identify genes are differentially
> > expressed under the
> >       same/similar experimental condition across different microarray
> >       experiments. This would help identify true signals from noises.
> >
> >       Hope it helps.
> >
> >       Cheers,
> >
> >       -Kei
> >
> >
> >
> >       Matthias Samwald wrote:
> >
> >             Hi Susie,
> >
> >             Susie wrote:
> >                   It would be great if you could take a look at it and
> >                   provide comments. The
> >                   ontology is available at:
> >
> > http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG_BioRDF_Subgroup/Tasks/Experimen
> > t_Ontology
> >
> >             * Some of the entities/properties are missing a
> > rdfs:label or
> >             have an empty label (a string with lenght 0).
> >             * Some of the entities could be taken from
> > existing ontologies
> >             like OBI, RO or some of the OBO Foundry
> > ontologies. This would
> >             save work and makes integration with other data
> > sources and
> >             ontologies much easier. By the way, there seem to
> > be several
> >             groups working on ontologies for mircoarray
> > experiments, or are
> >             at least planning to do that. It would be great
> > if these groups
> >             could work together.
> >             * The class 'Chip type' should be removed and be
> > replaced by
> >             subclasses of 'chip', e.g., 'chip (human)', 'chip
> > (mouse)' etc.
> >             * Some of the object properties appear like they
> > are intended
> >             to be datatype properties (e.g., 'has proteome id').
> >             * Many of the datatype properties could be
> > replaced with object
> >             properties, possibly referring to third party
> > ontologies -- of
> >             course this would require a richer ontology and
> > more work spent
> >             on creating mappings. 'has molecular function'
> > could refer to
> >             entities from the gene ontology, 'has associated
> > organ' could
> >             refer to an ontology about anatomy and so on.
> >             * Object properties and their ranges are quite redundant.
> >             Property 'has reagent' has range 'Reagent', property 'has
> >             treatment' has range'Treatment' and so on. Maybe
> > the ontology
> >             could be designed in such a way that there are only some
> >             generic properties such as 'has part'. This would make the
> >             ontology much easier to maintain, query and
> > understand in the
> >             long term.
> >             * It is unclear how 'Gene list' is intended to be used.
> >             * 'Hardware' and 'Software' should not be subclasses of
> >             'Protocol'.
> >
> >
> >             Many of the datatype properties in this ontology look very
> >             interesting and might provide requirements for other
> >             ontologies. It would be great if some of them could be
> >             described/commented in more detail so that we
> > know more about
> >             the requirements that motivated the creation of these
> >             properties.
> >
> >             I hope that was somewhat helpful.
> >
> >             cheers,
> >             Matthias Samwald
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > William Bug, M.S., M.Phil.
> >   email:
> > wbug@ncmir.ucsd.edu
> > Ontological Engineer (Programmer Analyst III) work: (610) 457-0443
> > Biomedical Informatics Research Network (BIRN)
> > and
> > National Center for Microscopy&Imaging Research (NCMIR)
> > Dept. of Neuroscience, School of Medicine
> > University of California, San Diego
> > 9500 Gilman Drive
> > La Jolla, CA 92093
> >
> > Please note my email has recently changed
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Frank Gibson
Research Associate
Room 2.19, Devonshire Building
School of Computing Science,
University of Newcastle upon Tyne,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU
United Kingdom
Telephone: +44-191-246-4933
Fax: +44-191-246-4905
Received on Wednesday, 12 December 2007 15:47:03 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 14:52:34 UTC