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Re: Question on expressing translations of terms

From: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:06:05 +0000
Message-ID: <CAD47Kz6_05X3Y+cDCvUiWZAy0-JbTODQCDY-0xtyJRYOPF0bfw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Aaron Bradley <aaranged@gmail.com>
Cc: Alexandre Bertails <bertails@apple.com>, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>, Thomas Francart <thomas.francart@sparna.fr>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, "schema.org Mailing List" <public-schemaorg@w3.org>
I have some sympathy in extending [the description of] the range of
schema:SameAs beyond its current web page focus.

I get the impression that practice is already doing this, with it often
defaulting to linking to URIs for broadly the same Thing as well as pages
about the same thing.

~Richard.

Richard Wallis
Founder, Data Liberate
http://dataliberate.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
Twitter: @rjw

On 17 March 2016 at 20:10, Aaron Bradley <aaranged@gmail.com> wrote:

> Extending the range of sameAs could as well address a conundrum that I've
> been struggling with for some time:  how to identify an equivalent URI for
> a resource in a different language.  As per Alexandre's note, hreflang
> accomplishes this for data consumers that respect it, but being able to do
> so with structured data would both broaden to availability of such data to
> more consumers and, of course, support much richer description of the
> resource (most notably the name in another language, or other text
> attributes - all hreflang does is allow you to say "URI1 in language X is
> also available as URI2 in language Y").
>
> E.g. - based on Alexandre's earlier code:
>
> {
>   "@id": "http://example.com/",
>   "@type": "schema:Website",
>   "schema:inLanguage": "en",
>   "schema:name": "Acme Industries",
>   "schema:sameAs": {
>     "@id": "http://example.com/fr",
>     "schema:inLanguage": "fr",
>     "schema:name": "Industries Acme"
>   }
> }
>
> Unless there's some way of currently accomplishing this that I've
> overlooked?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bertails <bertails@apple.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > On Mar 17, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Interesting, thanks, Alexandre. It seems to accomplish our use cases we
>> need 1) a clarification of sameAs to cover more than web pages, 2)
>> introduce an a type „Term“.
>>
>> Note that this is very close to what hreflang is trying to solve too, and
>> you'll probably need that as well if you expose your entities on different
>> web pages. But an explicit solution in schema.org would be nice as well.
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> >
>> > Richard asked about need. In HTML5 this has been around for a while, see
>> > https://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#terminology
>> > and
>> > https://www.w3.org/TR/its20/#EX-term-local-html-1
>> > as written below, currently such information is often processed by
>> tools outside the web. Having this Type in schema.org could help a lot
>> to bring language processing closer to the web.
>> >
>> > - Felix
>> >
>> >> Am 17.03.2016 um 15:35 schrieb Alexandre Bertails <bertails@apple.com
>> >:
>> >>
>> >> Felix,
>> >>
>> >> We are currently trying to solve a very similar problem. My plan is to
>> use schema:sameAs for that. Applied to your example:
>> >>
>> >> {
>> >>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>> >>  "@type": "schema:Term",
>> >>  "schema:inLanguage": "en",
>> >>  "schema:name": "screwdriver",
>> >>  "schema:sameAs": {
>> >>    "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-2",
>> >>    "schema:inLanguage": "de",
>> >>    "schema:name": "schraubendreher"
>> >>  }
>> >> }
>> >>
>> >> Conceptually, the 2 entities really denote the same thing. Granted,
>> our usage of schema:sameAs is not exactly what's described in
>> https://schema.org/sameAs but there are reasons why we prefer to stay
>> within the schema.org realm. And owl:sameAs would bring a lot of baggage
>> with it which we are not interested in.
>> >>
>> >> Also, I think schema:translation would be too specific. Personally, I
>> would be happy if the definition of schema:sameAs was less about web pages.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Alexandre
>> >>
>> >>> On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Am 17.03.2016 um 13:56 schrieb Thomas Francart <
>> thomas.francart@sparna.fr>:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't think the original question was about translating the terms
>> of schema.org itself (classes and properties); it was about the
>> possibility to describe terms/words, similar to what SKOS-XL proposes.
>> >>>> For me the original proposition makes sense, it would allow to state
>> things like "this term/word A is used for a large public", "that other
>> word/term B is used by the scientific community" "the words/terms A and B
>> are both used to refer to concept C", "word/term A is an acronym of
>> word/term B", "word/term D is slang, while word/term E is formal language",
>> etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, that was the original question. A further comment below.
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thomas
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2016-03-17 13:38 GMT+01:00 Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>:
>> >>>> Yes, I tend to agree with Chaals & Richard here: for translated
>> labels
>> >>>> of structured data vocabulary terms (schema.org's and others), we
>> >>>> should look towards the underlying W3C standards: RDF/S and perhaps
>> >>>> sometimes SKOS, SKOS-XL. It is usual to stick to a single URL for
>> >>>> types and properties rather than proliferate them by having different
>> >>>> URLs for each language.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> In my use case (see below) I need to differentiate uniquely (= via
>> URIS) between
>> >>>
>> >>> 1) terms in language X,Y,Z
>> >>> 2) common = language agnostic concepts that they denote
>> >>> 3) domains (= topics) that they belong too
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard wrote :
>> >>>
>> >>> [
>> >>> As to proposing a general purpose term definition / relationship
>> structure such as you describe, I can see the need for such a capability
>> but wonder if in most cases SKOS-like existing solutions would suffice for
>> detailed description.  Whereas I would require some convincing as to the
>> potential take up in a broad general purpose vocabulary such as Schema.org.
>> >>> ]
>> >>>
>> >>> The use case is a Japanese buyer of items who knows how something is
>> expressed in his language. He wants to be able to make a search for
>> >>> スクリュードライバー
>> >>> and say: give me pages about screwdrivers that express the concept of
>> a screwdriver in my domain and denotes the concept I want to buy (= take up
>> the information provided by 1,2,3 above). The buyer does not want to buy
>> screwdrivers in general, and he does not want to buy everything with the
>> label screwdriver in english; but he wants to be a specific screwdriver in
>> a given domain, e.g. automative manufacturing. The buyer also wants to take
>> variants of how terms are expressed into account, e.g. differences in
>> spelling, abbreviations etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Such searches are quite common in search of multilingual terminology
>> data bases. In these data bases terms are uniquely identified first class
>> citizens. More and more companies put such data bases on the web but don’t
>> have a way yet to do that with structured HTML markup. So search for
>> multilingual terminology, taking 1,2,3 into account, is not yet possible on
>> the Web.
>> >>>
>> >>> - Felix
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here is an example btw of RDFa+RDFS definitions that do this, from
>> >>>>
>> https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/blob/sdo-deimos/data/l10n/zh-cn/schema_org_zhcn.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> <div typeof="rdfs:Class" resource="http://schema.org/Audience">
>> >>>> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label">Audience</span>
>> >>>> <span class="h" property="rdfs:label" xml:lang="zh-cn">听众</span>
>> >>>> <span property="rdfs:comment">Intended audience for an item, i.e. the
>> >>>> group for whom the item was created.</span>
>> >>>> <span property="rdfs:comment" xml:lang="zh-cn">听众,观众, 读者</span>
>> >>>> <span>Subclass of: <a property="rdfs:subClassOf"
>> >>>> href="http://schema.org/Intangible">Intangible</a></span>
>> >>>> </div>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does this approach do what you have in mind, Felix?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dan
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 17 March 2016 at 10:56, Richard Wallis
>> >>>> <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Not sure I understand your definition of a term, but the ability to
>> handle
>> >>>>> names, or any other text based properties, of things in multiple
>> languages
>> >>>>> is already possible:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> {
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  "@context": “http://schema.org/”,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  "@type": "schema:Thing",
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  "schema:name": [
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    {
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      "@language": "en",
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      "@value": "screwdriver"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    },
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    {
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      "@language": "de",
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      "@value": "schraubendreher"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    }
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  ]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> }
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> or in RDFa:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> <div typeof="schema:Thing"
>> >>>>> about="http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1">
>> >>>>>    <div property="schema:name" xml:lang="en"
>> content="screwdriver"></div>
>> >>>>>    <div property="schema:name" xml:lang="de"
>> >>>>> content="schraubendreher"></div>
>> >>>>>  </div>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ~Richard
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Richard Wallis
>> >>>>> Founder, Data Liberate
>> >>>>> http://dataliberate.com
>> >>>>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis
>> >>>>> Twitter: @rjw
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 17 March 2016 at 09:04, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> It seems that schema.org as of writing would not allow to express
>> the
>> >>>>>> relation for terms „A is a translation from B“ or „A is an
>> abbreviation from
>> >>>>>> B“. It is already possible to express that A is translation of B,
>> see
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://bib.schema.org/translationOfWork
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> but this is specific to works, not translated terms. Would the
>> below make
>> >>>>>> sense? It is adapted from
>> >>>>>> https://schema.org/translator
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> note: schema:Term and schema:translation do not exist in
>> schema.org, I
>> >>>>>> made them up for the example.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> {
>> >>>>>>  "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-1",
>> >>>>>>  "@type": "schema:Term",
>> >>>>>>  "schema:inLanguage": "en",
>> >>>>>>  "schema:name": "screwdriver",
>> >>>>>>  "schema:translation": {
>> >>>>>>    "@id": "http://example.com/my-term-data-base-entry-2",
>> >>>>>>    "schema:inLanguage": "de",
>> >>>>>>    "schema:name": "schraubendreher"
>> >>>>>>  }
>> >>>>>> }
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> - Felix
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thomas Francart - SPARNA
>> >>>> Web de données | Architecture de l'information | Accès aux
>> connaissances
>> >>>> blog : blog.sparna.fr, site : sparna.fr, linkedin :
>> fr.linkedin.com/in/thomasfrancart
>> >>>> tel :  +33 (0)6.71.11.25.97, skype : francartthomas
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 18 March 2016 12:06:34 UTC

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