- From: Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>
- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:14:49 -0700
- To: public-schemabibex@w3.org
Richard, regarding your model, I think it depends much on how Work is defined. If Work is defined the way it is in BIBFRAME, then: Story Story in English are part of bibframe:Work, and the story in English is not an instance of the story. Instance comes into use only when the Work comes into being (in the "realization" sense). As I understand it, BIBFRAME separates the abstract from the concrete. [1] So maybe we should define what we mean by Work and Instance, and then look again at the terms we use for them. kc [1] However, if you read Alan Renear's work on FRBR, you may be of the school that only frbr:Item has physicality, the others are abstractions. Neither FRBR nor BIBFRAME feel entirely satisfactory, I must say, but do I have something better? Nope. On 3/24/13 5:34 PM, Wallis,Richard wrote: > I am not a massive fan of instanceOf and hasInstance either. > > But applying my test to creativeInstanceOf we get: > > * Story-in-English is a creativeInstanceOf Story - That sort of works > * Story-in-book-in-library is a creativeInstanceOf Story-in-pbk-book – That doesn't really work. Just stocking in a library is not really a creative act. > > The works themselves are creative, not the relationships between them. > > ~Richard. > > > > From: "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org<mailto:jyoung@oclc.org>> > Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:47:58 -0400 > To: Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@oclc.org<mailto:richard.wallis@oclc.org>> > Cc: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl<mailto:aisaac@few.vu.nl>>, <public-schemabibex@w3.org<mailto:public-schemabibex@w3.org>> > Subject: Re: InstanceOf/derivativeOf > > I could have beec clearer, but"isRecordOf" was intended as a joke. > > Regarding, "isInstanceOf", I'm reminded that GoodRelations has gr:Individual, which is disorienting for reasons similar to "instance". When GoodRelations integrated with Schema.org<http://Schema.org>, this got translated to schema:IndividualProduct, which is less offensive. Perhaps we should consider a similar hair split in this case with schemap:creativeInstanceOf. > > I have to say I absolutely hate instanceOf. > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPad > > On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:28 PM, "Wallis,Richard" <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org<mailto:Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>> wrote: > > > My formatting got screwed by the email system, so I attach a screenshot of > what I intended. > > ~Richard. > > > > On 24/03/2013 23:14, "Richard Wallis" <richard.wallis@oclc.org> wrote: > >> I tend to hold the same suspicions as Antoine as to the content of those >> 'few drinks'. I believe your wife was nearer with oneOf. However, I'm not >> sure either convey the meaning of the generic relationship we are trying >> to achieve. >> >> Personally the test I apply to these is to imagine a set of 3 or more >> CreativeWorks thus: >> >> >hasInstance >hasInstance >hasInstance >>> hasInstance >> / \ / \ / \ >> / \ >> Story Story-in-English Story-in-Book >> Story-in-pbk-book story-in-book-in-library >> \ / \ / \ / >> \ / >> isInstanceOf< isInstanceOf< isInstanceOf< >> isInstanceOf< >> >> I know this is stretching it a bit, but doing this tends to highlight >> where focussing in on individual use-cases hides where things are not >> appropriate elsewhere. In the above example I believe 'instance' works as >> a broad compromise, where as 'record', 'derivation', 'expression', >> 'realisation', and others seem to possibly work better in one area but >> much worse in others. >> >> ~Richard. >> >> >> >> On 24/03/2013 12:25, "Young,Jeff (OR)" <jyoung@oclc.org> wrote: >> >>> The thing I like about UNIMARC Authorities is that they have the notion >>> of a "primary entity" which is the thing the record represents. If you >>> look in the same places in MARC21 Authorities you'll find a tautology. >>> :-/ >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2013, at 7:58 AM, "Antoine Isaac" <aisaac@few.vu.nl> wrote: >>> >>>> Not sure I prefer these ones... >>>> >>>> PS: "record", really? Did your glasses contain MARC brandy? ;-) >>>> (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_%28eau-de-vie%29) >>>> >>>> >>>>> I described the general situation to my wife and she suggested the >>>>> alternative: "oneOf". Hmm. >>>>> >>>>> After a few more drinks, we finally agreed on "isRecordOf". ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2013, at 8:26 AM, "Wallis,Richard"<Richard.Wallis@oclc.org<mailto:Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have renamed the Work-Instance proposal to a more generic >>>>>> CreativeWork >>>>>> Relationships<http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/CreativeWor >>>>>> k >>>>>> _Relationships> to remove the associations with those words in FRBR, >>>>>> BIBFRAME etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> In yesterday's meeting we suggested that instanceOf& hasInstance >>>>>> should be renamed to derivativeOf& hasDerivative. However discussion >>>>>> on list has moved away from that idea so I have left it as is for the >>>>>> moment. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest we try some more examples and look at the wording. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we have general agreement about the need for these >>>>>> properties. It is the names we need to settle, and appropriate >>>>>> examples to test them against and use for explanation in the proposal. >>>>>> >>>>>> ~Richard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- Karen Coyle kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Received on Monday, 25 March 2013 01:15:17 UTC