Re: MANIFESTATION and ITEM EXAMPLES

On 05/07/2013 12:47, Tom Adamich wrote:

Thanks, but this record you cite is for physical items. For physical
items, I have already said that, of course there is a need for
manifestations to organize the different copies. (I still prefer to use
the word "edition") This is why I said in my message, to provide
examples where there are copies *in the digital realm*. There are not
multiple copies of the New York Times stored in various places on the
internet. There may be different versions of the New York Times, e.g.
epub, pdf, some tablet formats, and so on, but each of those would be a
different manifestation. Ultimately, each manifestation has a single
item. Everyone looks at the same files (or item). In earlier messages, I
mentioned possibilities of the Wayback Machine of the Internet Archive,
and BitTorrents and noted that both would have serious problems if
catalogers are to consider them to be "duplicates" to be managed.

In the physical world, everything is based on creating copies, and these
copies need to be organized and managed. That is the very purpose of the
manifestation record: to organize and manage duplicates. Where there are
no duplicates, as on the internet, there is no need for manifestation
records. This is similar to manuscript cataloging where--by
definition--there can never be a duplicate.
-- 
*James Weinheimer* weinheimer.jim.l@gmail.com
*First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/
*First Thus Facebook Page* https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus
*Cooperative Cataloging Rules*
http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/
*Cataloging Matters Podcasts*
http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html

> From the El Paso Public Library Catalog:
>
> MANIFESTATION
>
> *Title: *
>
> Beauty and the beast
>
> *Author: *
>
> Trousdale, Gary.
>
> *Edition: *
>
> Special ed.
>
> *Publication Information: *
>
> Burbank, CA : Distributed by Buena Vista Home Entertainment, [2010].
>
> *Physical Description: *
>
> 2 videodiscs (ca. 92 min.) : sd., col. ; 4 3/4 in.
>
> *General Note: *
>
> Originally produced as a motion picture in 1991.
>
>  
>
> Special features: restored and remastered, this Diamond Edition
> features three versions of the film (original theatrical version,
> special extended edition, original storyboard version); Disney
> sing-along mode; Backstage Disney features; alternate opening; deleted
> scenes; an all-new music video; games; and more.
>
> *Abstract: *
>
> The spell of an enchantress opens this classic fairy tale, turning a
> cruel prince into a hideous beast. Belle, the heroine, is a
> book-loving young lady trapped by the beast when she comes looking for
> her father. To break the spell, the beast must win Belle's love
> before the last petal falls from an enchanted rose.
>
> *Reading Level: *
>
> MPAA rating: G.
>
> *Subject Term:*
>
> Ugliness -- Juvenile films.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Ugliness+--+Juvenile+films.&lm=DVD>
>
> Love -- Juvenile films.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Love+--+Juvenile+films.&lm=DVD>
>
> Magic -- Juvenile films.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Magic+--+Juvenile+films.&lm=DVD>
>
> Animated films
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Animated+films&lm=DVD>
>
> Feature films, Juvenile.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Feature+films%2C+Juvenile.&lm=DVD>
>
> Fantasy films.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Fantasy+films.&lm=DVD>
>
> *Added Author:*
>
> Trousdale, Gary.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Trousdale%2C+Gary.&lm=DVD>
>
> Wise, Kirk.
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Wise%2C+Kirk.&lm=DVD>
>
> Hahn, Don
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Hahn%2C+Don&lm=DVD>
>
> Woolverton, Linda
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Woolverton%2C+Linda&lm=DVD>
>
> O'Hara, Paige
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=O%27Hara%2C+Paige&lm=DVD>
>
> Benson, Robby
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Benson%2C+Robby&lm=DVD>
>
> White, Richard, 1953-
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=White%2C+Richard%2C+1953-&lm=DVD>
>
> Orbach, Jerry
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Orbach%2C+Jerry&lm=DVD>
>
> Stiers, David Ogden
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Stiers%2C+David+Ogden&lm=DVD>
>
> Lansbury, Angela, 1925-
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Lansbury%2C+Angela%2C+1925-&lm=DVD>
>
> Menken, Alan
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Menken%2C+Alan&lm=DVD>
>
> Ashman, Howard
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Ashman%2C+Howard&lm=DVD>
>
> *Added Corporate Author:*
>
> Walt Disney Pictures
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Walt+Disney+Pictures&lm=DVD>
>
> Silver Screen Partners IV
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Silver+Screen+Partners+IV&lm=DVD>
>
> Buena Vista Home Entertainment (Firm)
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results.displaypanel.displaycell.detail.mainpanel.osrfielddisplay.newsearch?qu=Buena+Vista+Home+Entertainment+%28Firm%29&lm=DVD>
>
> *Language: *
>
> English
>
>  
>
> French
>
>  
>
> Spanish
>
> ITEMS
>
> *Available:*1
> <http://elpasopl.ent.sirsi.net/client/ma/search/results?qu=beauty+and+the+beast&te=&lm=DVD>
>
> *Library*
>
> *Click to Sort***
>
> 	
>
> *Material Type*
>
> *Click to Sort***
>
> 	
>
> *Call Number*
>
> *Click to Sort***
>
> 	
>
> *Status*
>
> *Click to Sort***
>
> Main Library
>
> 	
>
> DVD
>
> 	
>
> ENT BEA PT.1-2
>
> 	
>
> Due 7/9/13
>
> Main Library
>
> 	
>
> DVD
>
> 	
>
> ENT DIS PT.1-2
>
> 	
>
> On hold for someone
>
> Esperanza Acosta Moreno Library
>
> 	
>
> DVD
>
> 	
>
> ENT BEA PT.1-2
>
> 	
>
> Children's Media Collection
>
> Westside Library
>
> 	
>
> DVD
>
> 	
>
> ENT BEA PT.1-2
>
> 	
>
> Due 7/9/13
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Tom Adamich, MLS
>
> President
>
> Visiting Librarian Service
>
> P.O. Box 932
>
> New Philadelphia, OH 44663
>
> 330-364-4410
>
> vls@tusco.net
>
>  
>
> *From:*James Weinheimer [mailto:weinheimer.jim.l@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2013 3:35 AM
> *To:* public-schemabibex@w3.org
> *Cc:* public-schemabibex@w3.org
> *Subject:* Kill the Record! (Was: BIBFRAME and schema.org)
>
>  
>
> On 04/07/2013 22:04, Young,Jeff (OR) wrote:
> <snip>
>
>     The word "record" appears to part of the problem. I'm speaking of
>     identifiable manifestations/items that exist in the world
>     regardless of whether anyone has described them or not. I agree
>     that manifestation records in the past tended to mix things up
>     terribly, but I'm hoping that doesn't pollute our thinking about
>     the entities themselves moving forward. 
>
>      
>
>     The distinction between manifestation and item still exists in the
>     digital realm, but we need to recognize how the mechanics of this
>     distinction play out in modern Web/licensed use cases like the
>     ones I mentioned. The way catalogers describe these entities needs
>     to facilitate these mechanisms, not the other way around.
>
>      
>
>     Kill the record! :-)
>
> </snip>
>
> Now we are getting into some interesting matters. I have discussed the
> concept of "no record" and I still have problems with such an idea
> because I think there will still be "records"--they will just be made
> a little differently. In that sense, we are talking more about
> internal data structures than anything else and in fact, it will just
> keep the current situation because in our current RDBMS, there are
> currently no "records" as such but little bits and pieces linked
> together. From the user's point of view however, they see separate
> records just as they have always done.
>
> Perhaps I am just being dense, but it seems to me that from the user's
> point of view--and it is absolutely critical to see things from the
> user's point of view--they will still be seeing descriptions of
> specific resources. I agree that people do not want to see references
> to innumerable identical items repeated ad infinitum, but they still
> want to see how the various resources they can access are
> distinguished, that is, if those resources actually are identical or
> if they are different in some ways.
>
> So, when you say that "The distinction between manifestation and item
> still exists in the digital realm" I need to ask: could you show me
> some examples in the digital realm where a single manifestation has
> lots of different items? The Internet Archive example I gave earlier
> mixes manifestations and items together and does not fit the FRBR
> framework. You have mentioned content negotiation, but I still see
> that as a completely different concern: one of permissions to access
> *the same item*, not a matter that one organization will see a
> specific version of an epub of a novel while another organization will
> see another epub version of the novel. Each gets access to precisely
> the same file.
>
> Until I see a significant number of examples of "separate items"--that
> is, duplicates, that need to be organized under a "manifestation" I
> will continue to say that we need a different model for digital
> materials, perhaps similar to what we see in the Internet Archive.
> Although there are tons of problems with the metadata in the Internet
> Archive, I happen to like that part of the records, so that kind of a
> function would be fine with me, but we should not make the mistake of
> calling such a conglomeration of manifestation/items that we see there
> as a "manifestation". It is not an expression or a work. It is
> something quite different.
>
> Again, I have no love for the FRBR structure and am on record saying
> that it is based mainly on theoretical, academic and historical ideas
> that have little relation to what people want and need today. I think
> there is more than ample proof of that. Still, if we are going to use
> FRBR terminology, the terms should refer to the same concepts.
> Otherwise, it leads to complete confusion.
>
> -- 
> *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.jim.l@gmail.com
> <mailto:weinheimer.jim.l@gmail.com>
> *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/
> *First Thus Facebook Page* https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus
> *Cooperative Cataloging Rules*
> http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/
> *Cataloging Matters Podcasts*
> http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html
>