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Re: [ADMIN] Minutes of 1 September 09 telecon

From: Leora Morgenstern <leora@cs.nyu.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:50:13 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <60151.68.174.71.185.1254232213.squirrel@webmail.cims.nyu.edu>
To: "Axel Polleres" <axel.polleres@deri.org>
Cc: leora@cs.nyu.edu, public-rif-wg@w3.org
Axel,

> For the records: There were some small changes on DTB and some
> discussions about it:
>
> 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0002.html
> 2) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0011.html
> 3) I think I asked in the last TC whether we can/shall change the
> non-uniformity of the list-functions in DTB, which have a different format
> (informal mappings only) to all the other functions and predicates in
> DTB.

I checked the minutes of the August 25 telecon (which you scribed), and
indeed, it seems that you did bring this up.

However, I have no recollection of this being discussed at the Sept. 1
telecon, nor do my notes reflect it, so unless I hear from someone that
they do remember this being discussed at the Sept. 1 telecon, I think it
is best not to add this discussion to the minutes.

> I could try to tackle that, but not before two weeks from now.
>
> With the resolution to go to CR, should I consider these
> resolved/accepted?

>
> Axel
>
> p.s.: Belated regrets due to arrival of our child ;-).

I have added you to the regrets list.
Congratulations!

>
> Leora Morgenstern wrote:
>>
>> Attached are the minutes of the 1 September 2009 telecon.
>>
>> Please let me know of any corrections.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Leora
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Leora Morgenstern, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Research Scientist, Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
>> http://www-formal.stanford.edu/leora
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
>>
>>
>>   RIF Telecon 1-Sept-09
>>
>>
>>     01 Sep 2009
>>
>> Agenda
>> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0037.html>
>>
>> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-irc>
>>
>>
>>     Attendees
>>
>> Present
>>     Harold Boley, Jos de Bruijn, Mark Dean, John Hall, Sandro Hawke,
>>     Stella Mitchell, Leora Morgenstern, Christian de Sainte Marie,
>>     Chris Welty
>> Regrets
>>     Michael Kifer
>> Chair
>>     Chris Welty
>> Scribe
>>     Leora Morgenstern
>>
>>
>>     Contents
>>
>>     * Topics <#agenda>
>>          1. admin <#item01>
>>          2. Liaison <#item02>
>>          3. Action Review <#item03>
>>          4. Exit Criteria <#item04>
>>          5. Publications <#item05>
>>          6. Implementations <#item06>
>>          7. Test Cases <#item07>
>>     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       admin
>>
>> <ChrisW> Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
>>
>>
>>       Liaison
>>
>> sandro, chris: OWL, like RIF, relies on XSD 1.1., and that is still in
>> candidate recommendation.
>>
>> sandro: prognosis for XML schema datatypes is not promising.
>> ... OWL will have an appendix referring to XML schema datatypes.
>> ... and RIF can do something similar.
>>
>> <ChrisW> next item
>>
>> Nothing else in liaison.
>>
>> <ChrisW> next item
>>
>> <sandro> *ACTION:* sandro to make sure if OWL does a normative
>> appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also
>> work for RIF. [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action01]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-903 - Make sure if OWL does a normative
>> appendix for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also
>> work for RIF. [on Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>>
>>       Action Review
>>
>> <ChrisW> close action-902
>>
>> <trackbot> ACTION-902 Look at message from Nick B. and check FLD
>> schema closed
>>
>> close action-898
>>
>> <trackbot> ACTION-898 Answer faq 3.9 closed
>>
>>
>>       Exit Criteria
>>
>> <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
>>
>> <johnhall> zakim ??p0 is me
>>
>> <johnhall> P0
>>
>> <johnhall> zakim P0 is me
>>
>> <johnhall> Thanks Jos
>>
>> Chris: The exit criteria for RIF are listed at
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
>>
>> Sandro: I am concerned that Chris's revision to my proposal ---
>> namely, reducing the requirement from implementing a dialect of FLD to
>> merely specifying the dialect --- is putting the bar too low.
>> ... I don't think it's too high a burden to require an implementation.
>>
>> Chris: I think it's an unnecessary burden.
>> ... Regarding Sandro's point that someone can just flip through FLD
>> and figure out how to have some sort of (trivial?) instantiation:
>> Someone can also just say that they have an implementation.
>>
>> Sandro: Shouldn't they at least have to show that they can read and
>> write XML?
>>
>> Chris: Implementation tests the dialect, not FLD.
>>
>> Sandro: I won't object; just wanted to make the point.
>>
>> Harold: Should we also require a syntax and semantics for the dialect
>> specification?
>>
>> Chris thereupon made that change to the Exit Criteria.
>>
>> <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799
>> <http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799>
>> as RIF CR Exit criteria
>>
>> <josb> +1
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> +1
>>
>> <Harold> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> +1
>>
>> <sandro> +1
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> +1
>>
>> <johnhall> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799
>> <http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/index.php?title=Exit_Criteria&oldid=10799>
>> as RIF CR Exit criteria
>>
>>
>>       Publications
>>
>> Chris: Editors need to make changes to their Last Call documents: BLD,
>> PRD,
>>
>
>> , SWC, FLD, Core
>> ... Needs to be done by next week's meeting.
>> ... Assignments: Jos, SWC; Chris,
>>
>
>> ; Christian, PRD; Harold, BLD, FLD, Core.
>>
>> Sandro: Even if no changes have been made, one needs to note in the
>> document that there have been no changes since Last Call draft.
>>
>> <sandro> target publication date: Setp 17
>>
>> <sandro> try to approve WD pubs of Test and UCR on Sept 15.
>>
>> <sandro> PROPOSED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and
>> FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations
>>
>> <ChrisW> +1
>>
>> <sandro> +1 (W3C)
>>
>> <ChrisW> (IBM)
>>
>> <Harold> +1 (NRC)
>>
>> <josb> +1 (FUB)
>>
>> <johnhall> +1 (OMG)
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> +1 (self)
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 (self)
>>
>> <sandro> RESOLVED: Our Last Call drafts (Core, BLD, PRD, DTB, SWC, and
>> FLD) are ready to be published as Candidate Recommendations
>>
>> Sandro: Note that the statement of no changes or changes to last call
>> drafts is CRITICAL PATH, and therefore should be done today or tomorrow.
>>
>> <sandro> "Change since the 3 July draft...." or "Changes since the
>> Second Last Call draft of 3 July..."
>>
>> <josb> tomorrow is fine for SWC changes statement
>>
>>
>>       Implementations
>>
>> Chris: Since we have moved last call documents to candidate
>> recommendation, we are now in the call for implementations period.
>> ... We had originally talked about a two-month period for
>> implementations.
>> ... To get out of CR, we need implementations.
>>
>> Sandro: Yes, those are in the exit criteria.
>>
>> <sandro>
>> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/How_to_Submit_an_Implementation_Report
>>
>> Sandro: we want to point people to the above wiki page.
>>
>> Chris: Now is the time to follow up with people who indicated in the
>> comments that they would be interested in providing an implementation.
>> ... We need to get commitments from these people that they will do
>> this in this period.
>> ... Let's begin by making a list of people who will do implementations.
>>
>> csma: ILOG is working on an implementation. A month ago, we had a
>> first prototype running, so we probably have more going on now.
>>
>> sandro: I don't know if I'll get one done.
>>
>> Chris: Someone in the XML group at IBM made a RIF-based rule storage
>> system. Really a demo of XML X-query technology, but they did take
>> some rules and translated them to RIF, and stored them in RIF-XML, and
>> queried them.
>> ... question: does that count as a RIF implementation?
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* try to dig up XML RIF store [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action02]
>>
>> <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - try
>>
>> Sandro: Mike Dean has an implementation.
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Chris to try to dig up XML RIF store [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action03]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-904 - Try to dig up XML RIF store [on
>> Christopher Welty - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> mdean: RIF implementation is in progress.
>>
>> Chris: Silk will be an implementation of BLD.
>>
>> csma: Gary mentioned he was doing something, but I don't know the
>> status of it now.
>> ... will send Gary a message, asking for status.
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Christian to ask Gary about status of
>> implementation [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action04]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-905 - Ask Gary about status of
>> implementation [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> csma: I think Adrian is working with tibco on an implementation of PRD.
>>
>> <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_Working_Group
>>
>> Sandro: maybe we should have a RIF Dev mailing list, similar to OWL dev?
>>
>> <sandro> *ACTION:* sandro request creation of public-rif-dev [recorded
>> in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action05]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-906 - Request creation of public-rif-dev [on
>> Sandro Hawke - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> Chris: Rolf Gruetter has said that his group at WSL needs to have
>> disjunction in rule heads.
>>
>> Note: Gruetter did not say anything about his group actually
>> developing an implementation
>>
>> csma: OntoBroker has some sort of implementation of BLD
>>
>> Chris: Alexander Riazanov working on an implementation that converts
>> BLD to TPTP.
>>
>> Harold: He has been on vacation; but I'll try to talk to him about that.
>> ... There needs to be some web page on implementation of OntoBroker
>>
>> Sandro: Or better yet, send in an implementation report, as my wiki
>> page specifies.
>> ... Doing that is very quick.
>>
>> Chris: Currently the public information about OntoBroker's
>> implementation is inconsistent. ontoprise web page says there's a RIF
>> implementation and links to OntoBroker web page, but OntoBroker's web
>> page says nothing.
>> ... What about Tom Gordon. Is he an implementor?
>>
>> Harold: I don't think he's an implementor. He has a system LKIF, which
>> is for legal knowledge.
>> ... I don't believe he will implement RIF: he has more of a
>> theoretical interest in whether one can represent legal knowledge
>> using RIF.
>>
>> <sandro> Chime
>>
>> <sandro> Chimezie Ogbuji
>>
>> Discussion also on Adreas Abecker's comments and Chimezie Ogbuji's
>> comments.
>>
>> <ChrisW> Nick Bassiliades
>>
>> Harold: Nick Bassiliades has been following RIF; does defeasible
>> rules; unclear as to whether he'll actually do an implementation of RIF.
>>
>> <sandro> CR dreadline Oct 23rd, friday before the conferences....
>>
>> Sandro: Let's make deadline for implementations October 23, so people
>> will be able to announce it before the rules conferences.
>>
>> Chris: We'll revisit this topic at each telecon.
>>
>> csma: will restart work on RIF XML soon.
>>
>>
>>       Test Cases
>>
>> Chris: Axel had made an all built-ins test case
>> ... And that test case seems to indeed include /all/ built-ins
>>
>> Stella: I think it would be better to split it up somehow.
>>
>> Chris: Perhaps by data-type?
>> ... There are definitely some typos, like "listeral" instead of
>> "literal"
>>
>> Stella: Perhaps organize it by string predicates, number predicates,
>> etc?
>>
>> <josb> (I wanted to say exactly what Chris just said)
>>
>> Sandro: what's the problem with it being so big?
>>
>> Stella: If it fails, it's hard to figure out why.
>> ... can we split it by positive guards, negative guards, etc?
>>
>> Sandro: We can group it by the things people are most likely to
>> implement
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Stella to refactor All Builtins testcase [recorded
>> in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action06]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-907 - Refactor All Builtins testcase [on
>> Stella Mitchell - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> Stella: I can refactor the all built-ins case
>> ... There are all sorts of issues still to be dealt with, with respect
>> to the test cases.
>> ... Especially with all the changes in the documents, the
>> specifications, etc.
>> ... We need more than 15 minutes to go through this.
>>
>> <StellaMitchell>
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jul/0026.html
>>
>> Chris: Let's make this a priority for the next telecon, since the set
>> of test cases will be very important to the implementors.
>> ... What do we do with unapproved test cases? Require changes? Drop
>> them?
>> ... We do need an Assert/Retract case
>>
>> csma: We need an Assert /Retract case that is different from a Modify.
>> ... I don't have a case in mind, but it probably should be a negative
>> case; that you can't assert something about an object that you've
>> retracted.
>> ... I had a discussion with Adrian about this. He initially didn't
>> agree; then we had a discussion, including Changhai Ke and Gary, who
>> agreed with me. But Adrian has not replied, and therefore there has
>> been no conclusion.
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Christian to fix/update AssertRetract test case
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action07]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-908 - Fix/update AssertRetract test case [on
>> Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> csma: I need to get a consensus on this, and then either modify the
>> test case myself, or get someone to do it.
>> ... I think the assert test case is fine.
>> ... However, there is no XML for it.
>>
>> Chris: do we have anything to generate XML for PRD?
>>
>> csma: Not yet.
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> jacc
>>
>> Stella: can the XML be generated automatically using a tool like jacc?
>>
>> Chris: What about the other PRD test cases? Won't this be a problem
>> for all of them?
>>
>> <ChrisW> *ACTION:* Christian to check into XML syntax for PRD test
>> cases [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action08]
>>
>> <trackbot> Created ACTION-909 - Check into XML syntax for PRD test
>> cases [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2009-09-08].
>>
>> Chris: 2 remaining open issues in Working Group:
>>
>> <ChrisW> PROPOSED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note
>> on RIF combination with XML Data
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> +1
>>
>> <johnhall> +1
>>
>> <csma> +1
>>
>> <sandro> +1
>>
>> <josb> +1
>>
>> <mdean> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: close issue-37 as it is addressed by the draft note
>> on RIF combination with XML Data
>>
>> <ChrisW> PROPOSED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note
>> on RIF combination with XML Data
>>
>> <ChrisW> +1
>>
>> <csma> +1
>>
>> <sandro> +1
>>
>> <mdean> +1
>>
>> <johnhall> +1
>>
>> <LeoraMorgenstern> +1
>>
>> <josb> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: close issue-38 as it is addressed by the draft note
>> on RIF combination with XML Data
>>
>> <StellaMitchell> +1
>>
>> <ChrisW> NEXT MEETING IN TWO WEEKS!
>>
>>
>>     Summary of Action Items
>>
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Chris to try to dig up XML RIF store [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action03]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Christian to ask Gary about status of implementation
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action04]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Christian to check into XML syntax for PRD test
>> cases [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action08]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Christian to fix/update AssertRetract test case
>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action07]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* sandro request creation of public-rif-dev [recorded
>> in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action05]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* sandro to make sure if OWL does a normative appendix
>> for XSD 1.1, that it's phrased in a way that makes it also work for
>> RIF. [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action01]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Stella to refactor All Builtins testcase [recorded
>> in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action06]
>> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* try to dig up XML RIF store [recorded in
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html#action02]
>>
>> [End of minutes]
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
>> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
>> version 1.135 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
>> $Date: 2009/09/01 16:31:33 $
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>>
>> [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
>> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
>> Check for newer version at
>> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
>> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/>
>>
>> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>>
>> Succeeded: s/tipco/tibco/
>> Found Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
>> Inferring ScribeNick: LeoraMorgenstern
>> Default Present: Leora_Morgenstern, ChrisW, Sandro, Harold,
>> Stella_Mitchell, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, johnhall, csma, Mike_Dean
>> Present: Leora_Morgenstern ChrisW Sandro Harold Stella_Mitchell
>> +39.047.101.aaaa josb johnhall csma Mike_Dean
>> Regrets: MichaelKifer
>> Agenda:
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Aug/0037.html
>> Got date from IRC log name: 01 Sep 2009
>> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/01-rif-minutes.html
>> People with action items: chris christian sandro stella try
>>
>> WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
>> You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
>>
>>
>>
>> [End of scribe.perl
>> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
>> diagnostic output]
>
>
> --
> Dr. Axel Polleres
> Digital Enterprise Research Institute, National University of Ireland,
> Galway
> email: axel.polleres@deri.org  url: http://www.polleres.net/
>
>
>


-- 
Leora Morgenstern, Ph.D.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/leora
Received on Tuesday, 29 September 2009 13:51:00 GMT

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