See also: IRC log
<ChrisW> scribe: Jeff Pan
<ChrisW> scribe: JeffP
<ChrisW> scribenick: JeffP
<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 10/9 meeting
PROPOSED: Accept minutes of October 9 telecon 
PROPOSED: Accept minutes of F2F7 , 
ChrisW: W3C team is migrating
wiki to mediawiki
... we also want to migrate
<AxelPolleres> Will the old wiki still be preserved, then no prob, we can migrate other stuff on demand if needed.
ChrisW: Proposed: only migrate the active pages
Harold: will we lose web pages in this way?
Sandro: It is just a UI, so nothing would be lost,
<sandro> (it == the 100 page limit.)
ChrisW: There are many good reasons to move over, and now we should identify the web pages that we want to migrate
sandro: do we need to move now?
ChrisW: As Harold suggested, no move until the release of the working draft
<sandro> That's PFPS's **DRAFT for OWL WG** of his review of BLD. It's not sent to us yet, and may change before it gets sent to us.
sandro: JeffP is also attending telecons of both WGs
<Harold> Two concerns wrt early moinmoin->mediawiki conversion: 1) Loss of version history [currently versions older than 100 steps back are invisible, very likely just a moinmoin parameter]. 2) The wiki-tr tool need to be adapted [give time to try it out in mediawiki].
<Harold> RESOLVED: For WD2, change structural model so that Forall, Implies, and Atomic are three parallel subclasses of RULE (as shown on Christian's diagram labeled "BLD Rule: alternative")
<Harold> Even if we would just use RULE ::= CLAUSE | ' Forall ' Var+ ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) ' and thus avoid recursive Forall x1 ( Forall xN ( . . . )...) nestings, equivalent to our Forall x1 ... xN ( . . . ) we still have a few issues: 1) For the choice ' Forall ' Var* ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) ' we still need to capture in prose that all free CLAUSE variables should be declared in Forall's Var*.
<Harold> 2) For the choice CLAUSE (to the left of the '|') we obtain a duplication of formulas expressible as ' Forall ' ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '.
<Harold> 3) For the choice CLAUSE we are also dependent on the Prolog convention.
ChrisW: What is the new information?
(can we have an email explaining the problem?)
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to move this into the document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
<scribe> ACTION: sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-357 - And csma to move the action into the tracker [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-23].
ACTION 355 complete
Action 354 continue
<DaveReynolds> Action 356 done: see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/42
Action 353 continue
Action 352 closed
<AxelPolleres> 350 is done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0184.html
Action 351 continue
Actions 349 continue
Action 348 complete
Action 350 pending discussion
Action 347 complete
Action 346 continue
Action 342 pending discussion
ChrisW: which one is the BLD?
(six documents available from the above link)
csma: Which one is the complete one?
sandro: put it in appendix and a stable W3C URL
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to move the complete one into the appendix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-358 - Move the complete one into the appendix [on Harold Boley - due 2007-10-23].
csma: People should read and comment the schema
csma: should have been removed (?)
sandro: three questions as numbered
<Harold> We could also talk here about RIF Dialect Structure: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
<Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
<Harold> A Horn dialect has somewhat different semantics for a rule P(...) :- Q(...) than an extension with strong negation, where that same rule also 'means' its contraposition ~Q(...) :- ~P(...).
<csma> Normal forms!
sandro: not sure the answer yet
DaveR: what about built-ins?
<sandro> Sandro: Good question Harold. You could use different syntax. Otherwise there's a challenge as to how to do this.
<sandro> compare: Arch vs Component Library
<sandro> Component Library is a way to implement No-Conflict and Max-Reuse?
ChrisW: any other comments?
<Harold> Sandro, as I just reponded to Axel, we could keep the same syntax and construct a hierarchy of semantics (see Michael's lattice diagram).
sandro: Michael sent some
... blue arrows, syntactic sugar?
<AxelPolleres> I think that the contraposition issue can exactly be addressed with the definition of "loose layering" from Jos, mentioned in this mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0056.html
MichaelK: frames are syntactic sugar
sandro: I would like to have cheap and easy syntactic sugar
MichaelK: we need to think about the scenarios
<Harold> The semantics of extension dialects can extend the meaning of syntactic constructs in base dialects.
sandro: we were talking about another kind of round-tripping
<GaryHallmark> the most important round-tripping is using RIF as a document storage format
<csma> +1 to gary
csma: just a subject that we
... Dave did some early work on this
... maybe we should pick it up again now
<Harold> We have three early test cases from the examples of the paper, e.g. http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHornExample.rif
sandro: a query syntax or see the print result
csma: seems that the print approach is easier
<PaulVincent> +1 to test fn for print
<Harold> I think Query is needed anyway.
<GaryHallmark> query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
<JeffP> +1 for query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
<Harold> Actually, we already have a Query language: the BLD Condition Language. Let's use it for test cases!
(we are ruunig out of time)
<Harold> Jeff, I also agree with the bit about print "action" for PRD.
<DaveReynolds> +1 to Sandro, all that semantics is part of the dialect
<PaulaP> one possibility would be to list all facts (data items) entailed by the program
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/a three/three/ Found Scribe: Jeff Pan Found Scribe: JeffP Found ScribeNick: JeffP Scribes: Jeff Pan, JeffP Default Present: DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent Present: DaveReynolds ChrisW +49.892.1.aaaa PaulaP Harold StellaMitchell Sandro csma +012242aabb JeffP +49.351.6.aacc AdrianP AxelPolleres LeoraMorgenstern Gary_Hallmark MichaelKifer PaulVincent Regrets: JosDeBruijn IgorMozetic AllenGinsberg Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html Got date from IRC log name: 16 Oct 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html People with action items: 355 csma harold sandro[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]