See also: IRC log
<ChrisW> Scribe: Jeff Pan
<csma> scribe: Jeff Pan
<csma> scribenick: Jeff_Pan
<ChrisW> scribenick: JeffP
ChrisW: we don't have telecon next week
as the weekend will be our FTF
ChrisW: any changes to the agenda?
FTF starts at 9am
<csma> we do not hear you
(JeffP will arrive about noon)
josb: THe meeting will be at the
university, outside the centre
... two ways to reaching it: taxi or bus
... see the wiki
csma: there is a need of using the phone
ChrisW: any updates?
<PaulVincent> PRR update: final submisson supposedly in for June OMG meeting
<sandro> Okay, Jeff, I answered the registration survey for you.
<csma> ACTION-291 done
<sandro> (bringing us to 25 people who will attend at least part of the meeting.)
<csma> ACTION-290 complete
<csma> ACTION-281 continued
ChrisW: any discussions on this?
Axel_Polleres: is there a function translating URIs to strings and vice versa?
<PaulaP> fn:encode-for-uri is what you are looking for, Axel?
csma: maybe, but at the biginning we should focus the core ones
<AxelPolleres> paula, this is only one direction, the otherone is problematic, I think
ChrisW: seems that one direction is possible
Axel_Polleres: maybe good to keep it recorded
<MichaelKifer> we should have toString for every type. why reinvent the wheel
<DavidHirtle> yes, anyURI
<PaulaP> there is just one function fn:resolve-uri
<AxelPolleres> what i wanted to state is that we might need something special for rif:iri
anyURI is not a sub-type of string
ChrisW: is there a general transforming functions?
<AxelPolleres> An example from RDF: FOAF uses tel: URI's for telephone numbers, vCard uses strings... if you want to convert, you need something...
ChrisW: we need to reuse XML Schema, if possible
<AxelPolleres> Summary: probably we only need to extend the casting of XPath/XPQuery to new primitive datatypes we introduce/use, such as e.g. rif:iri, yes?
<AxelPolleres> what I mean is, we should nail down which basic sets of types AND which conversions we allow.
<PaulaP> the wiki page points already to that document
<PaulaP> perhaps is better to first decide on F&O
<PaulaP> and then link them
ChrisW: add links to their definitions
<PaulaP> I see
<PaulaP> thanks, Sandro
<scribe> ACTION: Sandro to put links to the F&O wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-292 - Put links to the F&O wiki page [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-06-05].
ChrisW: we should read F&O before the FTF
in particular on what should/shouldn't in core and why
<AxelPolleres> +1 to harold, allow all in principle, and only declare a subset normative!
<sandro> Sandro: so the use of an xpath function that we exclude will not be syntactically detectable.
csma: we have a mandated list datatype in the charter
<Harold> A F&O sequence can be represented as nested Uniterms in the normal Prolog manner.
<scribe> ACTION: on Axel to prepare a datatype conversion proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
<sandro> ACTION: Axel to prepare a datatype conversion proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-293 - Prepare a datatype conversion proposal [on Axel Polleres - due 2007-06-05].
<Harold> [e1, e2, ...., eN] --> Uniterm(e1 Uniterm(e2 Uniterm(... eN)...))
<ABG> I have to go; see you in Innsbruck
<scribe> ACTION: on Harold to prepare a proposal on sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
<sandro> ACTION: Harold to propose a treatment of sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-294 - Propose a treatment of sequences [on Harold Boley - due 2007-06-05].
<sandro> Gary: Is there a way I can tell if a function is logical or non-logical (built-in) ?
<sandro> csma: (ie unbound variables allows as argument).
<sandro> chris: ie can only tell at runtime?
sandro: one solution by Harold is to have one builtin ...
ChrisW: Harold, Michael?
MichaelKifer: I propose a special syntax
<Harold> User-defined functions can often be inverted: [a b c d] = append(?L ?M) tries to split [a b c d] into all prefix-postfix pairs (,[a b c d]), ([a],[b c d]), ..., ([a b c d],).
<AxelPolleres> that would mean we talk about different types of atoms then...
MichaelKifer: different dialects have different name spaces
<AxelPolleres> that would touch on the CORE model, wouldn't it?
<sandro> Sandro: I think implementors would like to know when they are seeing a call to a builtin vs using a logic function. Although we might want to hide the difference.
<Harold> Functions can already be defined in RIF WD1 using equations: append( ?M) = ?M append([?H | ?T] ?M) = ...
ChrisW: we seem to need more discussion on this
csma: we might not need a solution in the 2nd WD
AxelPolleres: we need to have a solution
<sandro> (Axel, your audio quality is quite poor)
<scribe> ACTION: chairs to open an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - chairs
<sandro> proposed ACTION: DeborahNichols open issue on whether the abstract syntax will distinguish between builtins and logic functions.
<sandro> ACTION: DeborahNichols open issue on whether the abstract syntax will distinguish between builtins and logic functions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action07]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - DeborahNichols
<sandro> ACTION: Deborah open issue on whether the abstract syntax will distinguish between builtins and logic functions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action08]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-295 - Open issue on whether the abstract syntax will distinguish between builtins and logic functions. [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-06-05].
<AxelPolleres> I can propose a strawman syntax, taken from a system I work with which at least opens some requirements
<Harold> For logic functions there are again two possibilities: uninterpreted functions and interpreted (equation-defined) functions. Only the latter ones can be compared with builtins.
<sandro> ACTION: Axel to propose strawman for resolving this new issue (builtins vs logic functions) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action09]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-296 - Propose strawman for resolving this new issue (builtins vs logic functions) [on Axel Polleres - due 2007-06-05].
Christw: Did you propose the XML syntax for RIF Core will not use stripe-skipping
<sandro> we lost you Chria.
<sandro> we lost you Chris.
<Harold> Gary, you're right, it's quite verbose to write And(arg1(Conjunct1) arg2(Conjunct2) ... argN(ConjunctN)) rather than just And(Conjunct1 Conjunct2 ... ConjunctN).
<PaulVincent> Apologies had to leave.
csma: We should avoid discussions on stripe-skipping in FTF
<Harold> I propose to omit stripes if they are 'artificial' (position-simulating) anyway such as arg1, arg2, ..., argN.
ChrisW: we need to proposal from abstract syntax to W3C XMLS
<Harold> Think back to the IRI vs. URI discussion: human readability.
sandro: human readability should not have 0 weight
<Harold> rdf:_1, rdf:_2, ...
<sandro> I basically agree.
<sandro> Gary: I agree, unless the position has some special role, as in uniterm.
<sandro> +1 Gary
Gary: if the first argument is a name for function etc. then it should keep a stripe
ChrisW: do we need a propsoal in FTF on this?
<Harold> Gary also mentioned the remaining positional arguments could get stripe-skipped.
<ChrisW> allen - your action #274 status?
<PaulaP> I added a couple of requirements today
Issues 14-21 to be closed?
Deborah: does it mean resolved?
sandro: delay till phase 2
<sandro> the typical term is "Postponed"
csma: we will start at 9am on June 2
<AxelPolleres> THe brave can meet at 6am to climb a mountain!
<csma> a small mountain?
<sandro> rdml (roll down mountain laughing...)
<GaryHallmark> better than moving the mountain
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/292/291/ Succeeded: s/datatype/list datatype/ Succeeded: s/-efined/-defined/ Succeeded: s/the first argument should be a name for function/if the first argument is a name for function etc. then it should keep a stripe/ Found Scribe: Jeff Pan Found Scribe: Jeff Pan WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Jeff\ Pan> ... Found ScribeNick: Jeff_Pan WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Jeff_Pan> ... Found ScribeNick: JeffP ScribeNicks: Jeff_Pan, JeffP Default Present: Francois, Harold, Sandro, IgorMozetic, Leora_Morgenstern, Jeff_Pan, csma, DavidHirtle, Allen_Ginsberg, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, Axel_Polleres, ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols, StellaMitchell, Gary_Hallmark, PaulVincent, PaulaP, +39.047.101.aacc, MichaelKifer Present: Francois Harold Sandro IgorMozetic Leora_Morgenstern Jeff_Pan csma DavidHirtle Allen_Ginsberg +39.047.101.aaaa josb Axel_Polleres ChrisW Deborah_Nichols StellaMitchell Gary_Hallmark PaulVincent PaulaP +39.047.101.aacc MichaelKifer Regrets: DaveReynolds Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007May/0066.html Got date from IRC log name: 29 May 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: on harold to prepare a proposal on sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action04] WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: on axel to prepare a datatype conversion proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/29-rif-minutes.html#action02] People with action items: axel chairs deborah deborahnichols harold sandro[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]