RIF Telecon 13 Mar 07

13 Mar 2007


See also: IRC log


Chris Welty (ChrisW), Deborah Nichols (Deborah_Nichols), Dave Reynolds (Dave_Reynolds), Hassan Ait-Kaci (Hassan_Ait-Kaci), Sergio Tessaris, Jos de Bruijn (josb), Paula-Lavinia Patranjan (PaulaP), Harold Boley (Harold), Allen Ginsberg (Allen_Ginsberg), Axel Polleres (Axel_Polleres), Leora Morgenstern (Leora_Morgenstern), Sandro Hawke (Sandro), Igor Mozetic (IgorMozetic), Adrian Giurca (agiurca), Paul Vincent (PaulVincent), David Hirtle (DavidHirtle), Gary Hallmark (Gary_Hallmark), Gerd Wagner (Gerd_Wagner), Michael Kifer (Michael_Kifer), Alex Kozlenkov (AlexKozlenkov)
Chris Welty (ChrisW)
Paula-Lavinia Patranjan (PaulaP)





<ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty

<ChrisW> scribenick: PaulaP

<DavidHirtle> Igor, I think I'm pretty sure I'm IPcaller... could you do 41#?

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Mar/att-0012/06-rif-minutes.html

ChrisW: minutes of last week

<DavidHirtle> yes, you're IPcaller.a, not IPcaller. :)

<IgorMozetic> David, aren't you IPcaller.a

ChrisW: any objections to the minutes?
... no objection
... next week telecon at same time as today

<IgorMozetic> David, you are right. How do I release IPcaller?

<ChrisW> ack ipcaller.a

ChrisW: no items to be added to the agenda?

<AxelPolleres> Can the one typing so lout please mute?

<ChrisW> ack [ip


<DavidHirtle> Igor, I just changed you to IPcaller.a, but IPcaller still seems unavailable

ChrisW: next F2F meeting
... Christian made another proposal for the upcoming F2F
... possibility to meet in Paris at ILOG
... Sandro to make a form for voting on the location and dates for the next F2F

Hassan: May 24 and 25, 2007

ChrisW: there are many possible dates at ESWC 2007
... some of them conflict with events co-located with ESWC 2007
... possible to vote for multiple dates

ChrisW: anything else on the next F2F?

<josb> I think the wiki page is clear


<PaulVincent> PRR: submission due in next OMG meeting

Technical Design

ChrisW: action review
... Michael, are you here?

<Deborah_Nichols> yes, my action is continued

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Specification

ChrisW: status of 1st WD?

<ChrisW> michael are you there?

Harold: Michael did almost everything
... moved blue boxes at the end

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core

ChrisW: is the heading structure fixed?

Michael: I did almost everything
... to fix the section heading structure - I forgot what this is about

Harold: structure of main and sub-headings

Michael: I'll take a look at the structure

ChrisW: Sandro, how is the TOC actually generated for the generated version?

Sandro: it uses the structure of what is on the front wikipage
... it is not the right thing at moment

ChrisW: too many levels of nesting

Sandro: it might be a bug in the wiki-tr

Michael: 2.1 is a heading, but 2.1.1 not

Sandro: let me look at it right now

ChrisW: 2.1 has a subsection Meta-model

Sandro: the problem is that it hasn't a number, it is just formatted in bold

Michael: 3 levels of nesting are quite normal

ChrisW: syntax and abstract syntax are sub-headings

Sandro: there are some problems here, style and number
... I'll choose a solution

ChrisW: also raise multi-sorted syntax one level

Michael: I see, it is level 5

ChrisW: check if subsections are nested too deep

ChrisW: action on linking to issues
... replace the discussion on URI

<Deborah_Nichols> The issue isn't there yet.

Michael: RIF:URI will be defined in a next WD

ChrisW: every datatype will have a URI

Michael: this should be replaced by RIF, datatypes will have URIs
... type of URIs

Dave: abstract domain
... not really sure if it is like RDFS resource

Michael: we have to say how to interpret this thing
... current as abstract domain
... there is an enumeration of all datatypes
... somewhere towards the end in Positive Conditions
... Multi-sorted syntax
... there is a paragraph on the domains of these datatypes

<sandro> AllenGinsberg, DavidHirtle -- I think I just fixes wiki-tr to do the right thing on the <pre> examples (finally!)

Michael: there are two sentences on that
... it is like RDFS resource
... adding a new notation just raises new questions

ChrisW: use RIF:URI

Michael: there is one more thing on disjoint domains

ChrisW: we didn't decide on that yet
... raise a formal issue to ensure that it will be discussed

<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/open

Deborah: the issue on URIs will be open tomorrow

ChrisW: disjointness of various semantic domains as new issue
... Michael to write an email to describe this new issue

Deborah: user-defined types considered as sorts?

ChrisW: we didn't have a resolution on that

Michael: what are they if they aren't sorts

<Harold> Coming back to my ACTION 232, I meanwhile looked again at Hassan's minutes, where it says:

<Harold> <csma> Harold: "...among the bodies of the rules expressed in future RIF dialects. Possible dialects that have been considered so far include LP, FO, PR and RR; the condition language could also be used to unfirmly express integrity contraints and queries".

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions

Harold: action 232 - there is just a typo above

<Harold> Although there was no decision regarding concrete extensions beyond Horn rules, the intent behind this condition language is that it will be shared among the bodies of the rules expressed in future RIF dialects. Possible dialects that have been considered so far include LP, FO, PR and RR; the condition language could also be used to uniformly express integrity contraints and queries.

Harold: the proposed resolution is given above

ChrisW: good

<josb> ack

Jos: disjointness of various domains; the issue is how extensible the Core should be
... some dialects will require such disjointness
... we need to look at it wrt to requirements on the Core

ChrisW: I agree with that

Dave: what is the status of the editorial comments of the reviews?

Harold: maybe send it again or pointers to it

<AxelPolleres> if I understood jos right he said that we need to decide whether core is the most restrictive subset, or whether actual languages could actually be more restrictive than the core? In case ++1

Michael: Francois also sent a message and I incorporated most of his suggestions

ChrisW: we don't need to repeat the review work

Michael: just search to see whether some issues were adressed

ChrisW: post the URL of your email containing the review

<AxelPolleres> ... anyway letme add, I think we shouldn't strive for the most restrictive possible subset, as this would be maybe somethnig not beyond propositional horn.

<DaveReynolds> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0107.html

ChrisW: we should take these comments also into account

Michael: about Jos's remark - extensibility means that everything in the Core will be there in the extensions


<josb> the issue is when other dialects add restrictions

ChrisW: action review

<AxelPolleres> jos, sure, but propositional horn is a kinda very restrictive dialect, right? so the question is where to draw the line for "core", IMO.

ChrisW: we started to have some substantial changes to the UCR WD
... should we make other changes before review?

Allen: requirement to determine that a set of rules conform to a certain dialect
... some way of determining that a language is in a RIF dialect
... is this a requirement?

ChrisW: I'm not sure that this is a requirement

<josb> indeed!

ChrisW: it might be a unsolvable problem in case of more complex dialects
... interesting question
... we can raise and discuss it, if you think this is important

<josb> It was exactly my point that we need to think about what we want with the core; from this would follow what it looks like.

Allen: the basic RIF processing model at the beginning of UCR WD
... this is Section 2
... I added some initial paragraph
... below the second figure are some new sentences
... not sure if Christian is happy with that

<ChrisW> It is worth noting here that data models based on XML, RDF, and OWL, have special status in RIF, in part because of the RIF charter. Interchange of rules based upon the use of other data modeling formats might therefore require additional machinery beyond RIF-based translation software.

ChrisW: PR people? do you have any concerns regarding the text given above and in the UCR WD?

<PaulVincent> No objection from a PR perspective...

ChrisW: should we get some reviews for the document?

Allen: I think so

Leora: I wrote a partial review

ChrisW: Leora, Adrian take a look at the new version to make sure you agree with it
... any other comments on the UCR WD?

<agiurca> ok


ChrisW: action review

<AxelPolleres> I checked, didn't find an action for me on that :-)

ChrisW: Axel, do you want a new action?

<AxelPolleres> nono...

ChrisW: actions to do work similar to Axel's
... Axel, anything to discuss today on RIFRAF?

Axel: actually I don't know what was decided at F2F
... I wait for the actions on Leora and Allen to be completed
... I can complete the work I started or wait until the Core is stable

ChrisW: the version of Core is stable

ACTION on Axel to complete his RIFRAF exercise

<AxelPolleres> that was the bottom-up vs. top down, right?

ChrisW: we still to use RIFRAF to this much more coarse-grained identification of dialects
... defining which combination of features goes in which dialect

Axel: before defining sets of features we need to define these features

Leora: agreement on that


ChrisW: we are at the end of our agenda

ChrisW: AOB?

ChrisW: propose to adjourn

<Hassan> +1

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Axel to complete his RIFRAF exercize - due 2007-03-31 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Sandro set up F2F6 survey, today [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Deborah to open an issue on disjointness of various semantic domains
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/03/13 16:05:34 $

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Succeeded: s/disjunction/disjoint functions/
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Found ScribeNick: PaulaP
Inferring Scribes: PaulaP
Default Present: ChrisW, Deborah_Nichols, Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, PaulaP, Harold, Allen_Ginsberg, Axel_Polleres, Leora_Morgenstern, Sandro, IgorMozetic, agiurca, PaulVincent, DavidHirtle, Gary_Hallmark, Gerd_Wagner, Michael_Kifer, AlexKozlenkov
Present: ChrisW Deborah_Nichols Dave_Reynolds Hassan_Ait-Kaci +39.047.101.aaaa josb PaulaP Harold Allen_Ginsberg Axel_Polleres Leora_Morgenstern Sandro IgorMozetic agiurca PaulVincent DavidHirtle Gary_Hallmark Gerd_Wagner Michael_Kifer AlexKozlenkov
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Mar/0030.html
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Mar 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: axel sandro

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