W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 06 Feb 07

6 Feb 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
igor, csma, DavidHirtle, ChrisW, PaulaP, Hassan, agiurca, Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, Allen_Ginsberg, Harold, StellaMitchell, Dave_Reynolds, AlexKozlenkov, Jeff_Pan, MoZ, Gary_Hallmark, Gerd_Wagner, Mike_Dean, Michael_Kifer
Regrets
Fran├žoisBry, JosDeBruijn, AxelPolleres, PaulVincent, MichaelSintek
Chair
Christian de Sainte Marie
Scribe
Igor Mozetic

Contents


 

<ChrisW> scribenick: igor

<ChrisW> Scribe: Igor Mozetic

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0005.html

Admin

<AlexKozlenkov> 44 is UK

<JeffP> +44 is UK

<AlexKozlenkov> Thanks for the UK bridge

calls from nonUS: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0007.html

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Jan 30 minutes

RESOLUTION: approve minutes from Jan. 30 telecom

<ChrisW> sandro, i did an "/invite rifbot #rif" is that right?

<JeffP> earlier in Europe I guess

RESOLUTION: March 13 and 20 telecom will be at 4pm CET time

F2F

<ChrisW> action-214 done

Liason

<ChrisW> 13 people have responded that they are attending the f2f

csma: do we need a liaison with XBRL?

<Harold> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBRL

csma: PRR is different from XBRL

<agiurca> XBRL represents financial vocabularies

<Harold> Christian, Said Tabet is interested in XBRL; could you ask him?

UCR

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/5

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: Close Issue-5

<PaulaP> I've also modified use case 2 based on Dave's comments

<ChrisW> and thank you DaveR for the comments

<ChrisW> ACTION: Allen to add conclusion/summary to UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: Close Issue-7

csma: we need 2-3 reviewers for UCR WD3 before F2F

<ChrisW> zakikm, who is here?

<agiurca> I can do it

agiurca: reviewer no.1

<LeoraMorgenstern> yes

MoZ: reviewer no.2

<LeoraMorgenstern> yes, I'll be there

LeoraMorgenstern: reviewer no.3

<LeoraMorgenstern> Okay.

ChrisW: reviewers should send comments to the whole list before F2F

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/FrontPage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=EditorsWD-rif-ucr-20070201.html

Technical Design

csma: what to say about OWL and RDF compatibility?

ChrisW: we have to say something, even if it is a placeholder

<Harold> OWL placeholder: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/A.5_Extension%3A_Ontology_Conditions

MichaelKifer: proposes just sections/placeholder in WD1

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: 1st CORE WD will have sections titled "OWL Compatibility" and "RDF COmpatibility"

Sandro: doesn't object

<ChrisW> harold, can you take an action to do that

csma: what to say about ASN06 and abstract syntax?

<Harold> Chris, Yes.

<Harold> Chris, it's sections *titled* ...

MichaelKifer: if we use BNF we have to say something about abstract syntax

<Harold> Michael, we called the BNF syntax Human Readable syntax.

<Harold> This is different from Sandro's Abstract syntax.

<Harold> Sandro's Abstract syntax really is an OO Abstract model.

Hassan: why another formalism like ASN06?
... we need flexible tools to move from surface syntax to abstract syntax

csma: BNF syntaxt is specific to Horn logic and rules

<Harold> Christian, for Phase 1 we want to use Horn.

csma: ASN06 will specify the abstract syntaxt, and XML the concrete one

<Harold> So, an extensible BNF syntax for Horn is what we want as the Human Readable syntax.

<GaryHallmark> I as an implementer want an XML schema for RIF. Where does that come from?

<sandro> GaryHallmark, that's generated by software from the asn06 file.

<agiurca> schema can be generated from asn06

csma: distinguish between using ASN06 and BNF in WD1
... we need at least one in WD1
... what is normative syntax is another question

<Harold> OWL also has a Human Readable syntax.

MichaelKifer: proposes to use BNF in WD1

<Harold> We wanted to be compatible with OWL, so we developed a very similar one, which has been in the Core since its beginning.

<Harold> We need it for specifying the semantics.

ChrisW: we add a clear statement that BNF is not normative

DaveReynolds: I see some value to including asn06 in the WD. (1) It is part of our extension mechanism, (2) it gives us a chance to get feedback on the asn06 idea, (3) it communicates that we are taking a meta-modelling approach.

MichaelKifer: in a few days there will be a stable version of WD1

<AlexKozlenkov> Does anyone have a good reference for asn06 apart from the RIF WIKI?

MichaelKifer: ASN06 can be added during or after F2F

<AxelPolleres> will just stay on IRC for a while to check what's going on...

Harold: fully striped XML is equivalent to ASN06

Sandro: turning BNF into ASN06 is not hard

<sandro> Sandro: To hide the fact that we don't have a metamodel we really like for the Core, by leaving out the asn06, isn't an approach I like.

csma: we need a description of ASN06 in WD1

<AlexKozlenkov> As I asked above, does Sandro have a good reference?

<sandro> ChrisW: what about using a UML diagram, instead of asn06 ?

ChrisW: proposes to add a UML diagram into WD1 as a metamodel for RIF

<sandro> +1 get formalizing asn06 out of the critical path for WD1

csma: provide UML diagram, use BNF, no ASN06, and
... make it clear that it is not normative

Sandro: keep "no ASN06" out of the resolution

<Harold> DaveR, BNF is needed for the semantics spec.

DaveReynolds: why BNF, it might be misleading

MichaelKifer: BNF has a long tradition in mathematics

ChrisW: agrees with Michael

<AlexKozlenkov> I don't think UML is enough, it's just a graphical notation unless MOF is brought into it.

<GerdWagner> Alex, they mean MOF/UML when saying "UML"

<Harold> Example for the use of BNF syntax in semantics: I |= head :- body

<AlexKozlenkov> GW: they were suggesting using diagrams

<Harold> Another one: We define I |= Q head :- body iff I* |= head :- body for every I* that agrees with I everywhere except possibly on some variables mentioned in Q.

MichaelKifer: BNF cannot be avoided if we want to provide semantics
... if we want readability

csma: don't remove the BNF from WD1

<ChrisW> proposed: 1st WD will include a UML diagram, and a clearly labelled non-normative BNF, for the syntax

<PaulaP> +1 to stay with the BNF syntax for the 1st WD

DaveReynolds: does not object to using BNF

<agiurca> +1 to include an UML diagram

<DaveReynolds> igor: I said I "would not object"

<AlexKozlenkov> Gerd, could you please clarify?

DaveReynolds: said he would _not_ object to BNF

<ChrisW> proposed: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram, and a clearly labelled non-normative BNF, for the syntax

<sandro> BNF should be labelled not just non-normative but "not reviewed by WG"

<Harold> Christian, I can translate the asn06 model to MOF/UML.

Sandro: BNF was not reviewed by the RIF group and is not endorsed

<Harold> (But one of Sandro's asn06 tools could soon do it automatically?)

<AlexKozlenkov> But all the examples using BNF would then become "not reviewed by WG"?

Sandro: and this should be clearly stated in WD1

<sandro> "The Working Group has not considered the design of the language exprssed in this BNF. It is just a pedagogical tool. The serialization itself has not in any way been endorsed by the working group as a language for expressing rules"

<sandro> "for illustration purposes only"

<Harold> Christian, there are no commas!

<Harold> We use OWL's Human Readable syntax.

<Harold> OWL uses a Lisp-like space-separated language.

<Hassan> +1 to proposed resolution above

<ChrisW> proposed: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram, and a BNF (clearly labelled as non-normative and illustrative only) , for the syntax

<sandro> Proposed: WD1 will include a MOF UML diagram and a BNF clearly labeles as non-normative and for illustration purposes only.

<AlexKozlenkov> MOF then becomes normative

Harold: objects to have BNF labeled as non-normative

MichaelKifer: agrees with Harold since we are too far from the final document

<ChrisW> proposed: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram, and a BNF, for the syntax (clearly labelled as illustrative only)

<Harold> proposed: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram, and a BNF, for the syntax (clearly labelled for illustration/explanation purposes only)

csma: both MOF/UML and BNF (or any) may disapear in the future

<AlexKozlenkov> no comma before "and a BNF"

<PaulaP> +1

<Hassan> +1

<Harold> proposed: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram and a BNF, for the syntax (clearly labelled for illustration/explanation purposes only).

<AllenGinsberg> should say "clearly labelled as being for..."

<sandro> trackbot, help

<trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)

<rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/

csma: we need 2-3 reviewers of WD1 within one week

<ChrisW> Resolved: 1st WD will include a MOF-UML diagram, and a BNF, for the syntax (clearly labelled as for illustration/explanation purposes only)

<sandro> trackbot, bye

<AllenGinsberg> lef out "being" in the resolution

<AllenGinsberg> I will

<ChrisW> ACTION: Harold to add placeholder sections each for OWL and RDF compatibilty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-216 - Add placeholder sections each for OWL and RDF compatibilty [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-13].

csma: reviewer no.1 is JosDB

mdean: reviewer no.2 by next Tue

<sandro> Reviews of http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core due by next week

<AllenGinsberg> yes

<sandro> reviewers: JosDB, MikeDean, AllenGinsberg

<ChrisW> ACTION: Harold to draft caveat emptor section for syntax in core [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-217 - Draft caveat emptor section for syntax in core [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-13].

AllenGinsberg: reviewer no.3

<ChrisW> ACTION: jos de bruijn to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<rifbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos

<rifbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij, jderoo)

<ChrisW> ACTION: jos_de_bruijn to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jos_de_bruijn

csma: stripe-skipping in WD1

<ChrisW> rifbot, help

<rifbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)

Harold: current WD is stripe-skipped with two exceptions: head and body roles in Horn rules as well as declare and formula roles in quantified formulas.

<ChrisW> ACTION: jdebruij to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-218 - Review CORE WD by next week [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2007-02-13].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Allen to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-219 - Review CORE WD by next week [on Allen Ginsberg - due 2007-02-13].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Mike to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action08]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-220 - Review CORE WD by next week [on Mike Dean - due 2007-02-13].

Harold: there will be XML examples in WD1 (for illustration)

<ChrisW> ACTION: Leora to review UCR WD by Feb 26 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action09]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-221 - Review UCR WD by Feb 26 [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2007-02-13].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Adrian to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action10]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Adrian

csma: the WD1 will contain XML examples (stripe-skipped) and labeled for illustration only

<ChrisW> sandro, adrian is not in the action tracker

proposed: the WD1 will contain XML examples (stripe-skipped) and labeled for illustration only

<ChrisW> ACTION: Mohamed to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action11]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-222 - Review UCR WD due Feb 23 [on Mohamed ZERGAOUI - due 2007-02-13].

<PaulaP> +1

resolved: the WD1 will contain XML examples (stripe-skipped) and labeled for illustration only

<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to clearly label XML stripe-skipped examples as for illustration purposes only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action12]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-223 - Clearly label XML stripe-skipped examples as for illustration purposes only [on Harold Boley - due 2007-02-13].

<agiurca> ChrisW: Adrian is agiurca

<ChrisW> ACTION: agiurca to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action13]

<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - agiurca

<ChrisW> Sandro?

RIFRAF

<LeoraMorgenstern> nothing to report

<ChrisW> adrian is not in the tracker

csma: no updates

AOB

Harold: F2F with afternoon for demos

<sandro> (two different databases)

Harold: when does the next F2F finish?

<GaryHallmark> what the demo?

ChrisW: next F2F will finish at 3pm

csma: agenda for F2F should be defined by Feb 10

<sandro> ChrisW, sorry, I'm not going to be able to get Adrian in Tracker right now.

<ChrisW> can i give you an action?

<sandro> Sure, give me an action to give Adrian the action.

<ChrisW> ACTION: sandro to add adrian to the tracker and give him the UCR review action due: Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action14]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-224 - Add adrian to the tracker and give him the UCR review action due: Feb 23 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-02-13].

csma: one (maybe two) demos at next F2F

<Harold> What about demos by Sandro and Hassan?

<ChrisW> +1

<JeffP> +1

<PaulaP> +1

adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Adrian to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: agiurca to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Allen to add conclusion/summary to UCR [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Allen to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to add placeholder sections each for OWL and RDF compatibilty [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: harold to clearly label XML stripe-skipped examples as for illustration purposes only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to draft caveat emptor section for syntax in core [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: jdebruij to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jos de bruijn to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jos_de_bruijn to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Leora to review UCR WD by Feb 26 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Mike to review CORE WD by next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Mohamed to review UCR WD due Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro to add adrian to the tracker and give him the UCR review action due: Feb 23 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html#action14]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.127 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/02/06 17:37:07 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127  of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/BRL/XBRL/
Succeeded: s/Hron/Horn/
Succeeded: s/turing/turning/
FAILED: s/turing/turning/
Succeeded: s/what/why/
Succeeded: s/UMP/UML/
Succeeded: s/amy/may/
Found ScribeNick: igor
Found Scribe: Igor Mozetic
Default Present: igor, csma, DavidHirtle, ChrisW, PaulaP, Hassan, agiurca, Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, Allen_Ginsberg, Harold, StellaMitchell, Dave_Reynolds, AlexKozlenkov, Jeff_Pan, MoZ, Gary_Hallmark, Gerd_Wagner, Mike_Dean, Michael_Kifer
Present: igor csma DavidHirtle ChrisW PaulaP Hassan agiurca Sandro Leora_Morgenstern Allen_Ginsberg Harold StellaMitchell Dave_Reynolds AlexKozlenkov Jeff_Pan MoZ Gary_Hallmark Gerd_Wagner Mike_Dean Michael_Kifer
Regrets: Fran├žoisBry JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres PaulVincent MichaelSintek
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0005.html
Got date from IRC log name: 6 Feb 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/02/06-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: adrian agiurca allen bruijn de harold jdebruij jos jos_de_bruijn leora mike mohamed sandro

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