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JSON-LD Telecon Minutes for 2013-01-22

From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:10:01 -0500
Message-ID: <50FF0E39.2040900@digitalbazaar.com>
To: Linked JSON <public-linked-json@w3.org>
CC: RDF WG <public-rdf-wg@w3.org>
The minutes from today's telecon are now available.

http://json-ld.org/minutes/2013-01-22/

Full text of the discussion follows including a link to the audio
transcript:

--------------------
JSON-LD Community Group Telecon Minutes for 2013-01-22

Agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2013Jan/0052.html
Topics:
   1. ISSUE-204: Design Issue with Relative IRIs and Compaction
   2. ISSUE-211: Potential ambiguity when setting default
      language
   3. Approach to Algorithms
   4. Remaining Editorial Work for JSON-LD 1.0 Specification
   5. Editor/Author Attribution Order
Chair:
   Manu Sporny
Scribe:
   Manu Sporny
Present:
   Manu Sporny, Gregg Kellogg, Niklas Lindström, Markus Lanthaler,
   David I. Lehn, Paul Kuykendall
Audio:
   http://json-ld.org/minutes/2013-01-22/audio.ogg

Manu Sporny is scribing.

Topic: ISSUE-204: Design Issue with Relative IRIs and Compaction

https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/204#issuecomment-12528503
Manu Sporny:  Dave Longley was implementing this feature and
   found that the decision we made last week keeps us from
   implementing something pretty important for PaySwarm. It prevents
   us from using terms for @ids, so something like this: "rateType":
   "FlatAmount" isn't allowed anymore, where FlatAmount should
   expand to http://purl.org/payswarm#FlatAmount
Gregg Kellogg:  So, if it's a relative IRI, it's fine, right?
Manu Sporny:  We'll it's not a relative IRI, it's a term. The
   decision we made on the call last week makes it impossible to use
   a term in @id.
Gregg Kellogg:  Ah, I see. I don't agree that it doesn't allow
   it... we made a decision on syntax, not a decision about
   semantics.
Niklas Lindström:  I think it's an issue, and I thought this
   might be an issue when we made the decision. We may want a new
   thing like @symbol (or @term) for this use case. I would not want
   to revert a decision on @id itself because of the problem with
   relative IRIs. We did that to stay aligned with the treatment of
   values in the resource attribute of RDFa. If you want something
   for type coercion, we need a new keyword that would have the
   lexical scope the same as what in RDFa is a term or CURIE or IRI.
Gregg Kellogg:  I don't see how this is any different from a
   CURIE, why doesn't it just expand?
Manu Sporny:  We already support CURIEs, but we removed terms
   because of the potential to conflict with relative IRIs.
Manu Sporny:  Niklas, I'm confused to how what you're proposing
   would solve the issue.
Niklas Lindström: Right now, we can do this in the context -
   "@type": {"@id": "rdf:type", "@type": "@id"}
Niklas Lindström: we could add a feature to do this: "@type":
   {"@id": "rdf:type", "@type": "@symbol"}
Niklas Lindström:  So, you would do something like this in
   @context: - "rateType": {"@type": "@symbol", "@id":
   "http://purl.org/payswarm#rateType"}
Manu Sporny:  Yeah, downside being added complexity to terms. I
   think relative IRIs cause more harm than it helps, do we really
   need them?
Niklas Lindström:  I think it's common practice to have IRIs and
   URLs as relative - they want to put that into JSON and add a
   context.
Gregg Kellogg:  This is done in RDFa and TURTLE and most every
   other RDF serialization.
Niklas Lindström:  RDFa is almost too close - processing terms in
   JSON-LD in @id is over-the-top for my acceptable-risk level.
Gregg Kellogg:  But you're okay with having relative IRIs, you
   might do resource="#this", that's fine?
Gregg Kellogg:  Is it a relative IRI that has a form of a term?
   Yes. Do we try to protect users from themselves or not? If we try
   to protect them, there is no end to it. The same argument goes
   for relative URIs.
Error: (IRC nickname not recognized)[Tue 10:18]	<niklasl>	In
   turtle, that'd be expressed like: <…> :rateType :FlatAmount .
Niklas Lindström:  If you use a context which defines terms like
   that, then the risk is there. People won't understand why things
   are not working until it's too late.
Niklas Lindström:  We could do ./ for relative IRIs
Markus Lanthaler: No, that's problematic as well - ./#fragment !=
   #fragment if base is something like ../some/path/file
Manu Sporny:  ./ doesn't seem like it would fix all the corner
   cases. We really need this feature for PaySwarm because
   developers have said that having colons in things like rateType
   are confusing. Why can they use colon-less things on the left,
   but things on the right need colons? It doesn't lead to markup
   that's easy to understand for beginners. We want this stuff to
   look as close to the JSON folks use today as we can.
Gregg Kellogg:  What about fragment identifiers? What about empty
   string for relative IRIs?
Gregg Kellogg:  I don't think ./ helps. There are a number of
   things that we can do ./#foo is wrong, "" expanding to "./" is
   wrong
Niklas Lindström:  If there wasn't a heritage for relative IRIs,
   this would be easier. Web documents have been published with just
   words (relative IRIs) in href/src for ages. It would be bad to
   not support it.
Niklas Lindström:  The bottom-line is that IRIs are different
   from terms.
Gregg Kellogg:  This seems like a reasonable thing to do in
   JSON-LD, using relative IRIs.
Markus Lanthaler:  Why couldn't you you do this? "rateType":
   "ps:FlatAmount"
Niklas Lindström: Since we have a distinct lexical scope which we
   use for predicates and type references, I think a keyword
   representing that is useful. It's not more complex, it's just
   explicit.
Gregg Kellogg: Isn't the restriction on using terms just for the
   value of @id?
Markus Lanthaler:  They don't have to know the right-hand side is
   an IRI - it's an argument for CURIEs...
Gregg Kellogg:  Terms are restricted to the value of an @id.
Manu Sporny:  No, that's not the problem I don't think. If we
   have this - "foo": "blah"
Manu Sporny:  and we have this in the context: "blah":
   "http://example.org/vocab#blah", "foo": {"@id":
   "http://example.org/vocab#foo", "@type": "@id" }
Markus Lanthaler: Keep in mind that "foo": "blah" is equivalent
   to "foo": { "@id": "blah" }
per our current rules.
Gregg Kellogg:  That is illegal - the compacted form would be
   illegal if foo did not have a @type of @id.
Gregg Kellogg:  I don't think there is an issue here - you can
   compact it back down to "blah".
Manu Sporny:  That's not the decision I thought we made last
   week.
Markus Lanthaler:  If you type coerce it to @id, isn't that
   equivalent?
Niklas Lindström: So, you're saying this is illegal if "blah" is
   a term? "foo": {"@id": "blah"}
Gregg Kellogg:  Semantically, they mean the same thing -
   syntactically, it's illegal.
Gregg Kellogg:  It'll compact back to just using "blah" if "foo"
   has a @type of @id. If it didn't have a @type of @id, it would
   compact back down to a node reference and you couldn't compact it
   back down to blah.
Gregg Kellogg:  If foo was defined with xsd:integer, you wanted
   to use foo - you would have to use the long form - the object
   form for the IRI.
Manu Sporny:  So, two things going on here syntax vs. semantics.
   When we make the rule that a term cannot be put in the value of
   @id, we're talking about the syntax - not the semantic meaning.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think this solves this conundrum - there really
   isn't a problem.
Niklas Lindström: I think we disabled it for @id because a
   relative IRI could be mistaken for a term or vice versa. I think
   the value of a property, even if it is type coerced to @id, when
   you process it you process it as @id, I don't think we can
   distinguish it when processing.
Markus Lanthaler:  I dont' think that's the decision we made.
Niklas Lindström: What's difference between "foo": {"@id":
   "blah"} versus "foo": "blah" where foo is coerced to @id ?
Gregg Kellogg:  When I voted on this, I thought it was a
   syntactic restriction - if it wasn't, I would change my vote.
Manu Sporny:  When I voted for it, I didn't realize we were
   introducing this limitation.
Markus Lanthaler:  Wouldn't a simple technical solution be to
   just compact to a relative IRI if there is no term that collides.
Markus Lanthaler:  It might not be a good idea, but it would be
   easy to debug.
Niklas Lindström:  I don't know if I like that.
Manu Sporny:  I'd be fine with it, Dave Longley didn't like that.
Gregg Kellogg:  This is a short-hand for the same syntactic
   construct...
Niklas Lindström:  The problem remains... which is accidentally
   introducing bad data.
Manu Sporny:  Two potential solutions here - what Niklas
   proposed, and adding 'term' back into the allowed types for @id
   (which could lead to uncompated IRIs). It doesn't seem like we're
   close to consensus and we've burned through 40 minutes of telecon
   time. Any objections to move on in our Agenda? We should discuss
   potential solutions in the issue tracker.

Topic: ISSUE-211: Potential ambiguity when setting default language

https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/211
Manu Sporny:  We had general agreement that this isn't an issue.
Markus Lanthaler:  The question is whether or not we take the
   default language into account when applying a term - the
   algorithms are written this way. Perhaps we should add a sentence
   or two to the syntax spec to make this clear.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think the spec is clear, let's close this
   issue.
General agreement in the group to close the issue with no change.

Topic: Approach to Algorithms

Manu Sporny:  I don't know how much headway we can make on this.
Gregg Kellogg:  My concern is that things need to be easy to
   understand in the spec, so let's table this until Dave makes more
   progress.
Manu Sporny:  Dave's been busy reading both Markus' and Gregg's
   updated algorithms. He is implementing most of it, but
   introducing his own algorithms for the things that could be
   simplified. He will update the spec text when he is done.
Manu Sporny:  general approach of dave's algorithms is to
   simplify and ensure that there is a prose header that accurately
   describes the inputs and outputs of the algorithms. [scribe
   assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … He has a simplified version of reverse contexts
   that should be easy to use.
Gregg Kellogg: … He also plans to run with Markus' restatement of
   term selection, which had broad support.
Manu Sporny:  probably not going to make Last Call (LC) by end of
   January for the JSON-LD Algorithms and API. [scribe assist by
   Gregg Kellogg]
Markus Lanthaler:  can we change the algorithms after we're in
   last call? [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Manu Sporny:  it's a gray area. We could enter into LC and then
   modify the algorithms, but if they change some corner-case that
   would make it a big change, causing us to go through another LC.
   [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Markus Lanthaler:  When can we go to LC?
Manu Sporny:  At any time, really - when we're ready. What we
   should make sure is that all of the editor's are on-board with
   the algorithms before going to LC. If we don't do that, we
   increase the risk of having to go through another LC. So, better
   to put off the LC than go into it prematurely.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think the RDF WG was just concerned about
   making sure that we're really close to LC, for the extension of
   their charter. We're very close with the API spec, so let's wait
   for Dave's changes and go from there.

Topic: Remaining Editorial Work for JSON-LD 1.0 Specification

Manu Sporny:  I went through the spec with a fine-toothed comb
   and fixed a number of editorial issues. I've done Sections 1-5,
   Advanced section is next. There are a few problems with the spec
   at this point: 1) we use some terminology before we define it, 2)
   we introduce some concepts in the basic section that should be in
   the advanced section. Overall, I think the flow of the document
   has suffered by consolidating sections.
David I. Lehn: after looking at recent commits, you all might
   want to coordinate a common whitespace, indentation, and html
   style.
Manu Sporny:  I think that's the least of our worries. These
   documents go through so many edits that it's difficult to keep
   that stuff well organized. We can do a code-formatting run after
   the docs are out of Last Call or Candidate Rec.
Gregg Kellogg:  We do want to be consistent with words - for
   flow, most of us are used to reading these things in a browser,
   so you can go back-and-forth easily enough for the terminology
   issue... unless there are people that print these specs out to
   read them.
Markus Lanthaler:  The other problem is that sometimes we have to
   repeat things, so we should consolidate
Markus Lanthaler:  It would be simpler to combine certain
   sections into a single section.
Manu Sporny:  I am strongly against combining some of the
   sections in the way they've been combined. It used to be that you
   would get a very gradual introduction to the JSON-LD, that is no
   longer true for the spec, and that's a very bad thing. There are
   some things in the basic section that need to be moved to the
   advanced section, they are too much for a first-time reader to
   grasp.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think there are two issues here - one is
   editorial coordination, a need for us to communicate before we
   make big changes unilaterally.
Gregg Kellogg:  There might be a little more harmony if we
   discuss an approach together and proceed on that general
   approach. The second is the specifics of this, the form of the
   syntax document.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think it had a pretty nice flow before all the
   way up to advanced concepts, if that means simplifying examples,
   then that's good.
Paul Kuykendall: I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but as a
   newcomer to reading the JSON-LD specs, I agree with what Manu is
   saying regarding the spec hitting with advanced topics right off
   and explaining things far later in the document.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think we should leave the more nasty details to
   section 6.
Gregg Kellogg: Paul, that's good input.
Gregg Kellogg:  One of the things we're trying to convey is that
   an important part of JSON-LD is that it's simple... we should
   keep it that way in the beginning of the spec.
Manu Sporny:  I also don't like that we've chipped away at the
   Design Goals and Rationale section. We've gotten rid of the
   stream-based processing bit. That's a shame, we should try to say
   what it said before in a way that works for everybody.
Manu Sporny:  Specifically, I think these examples need to move
   to the advanced section: example 1 should be simplified, that
   would simplify example 2. Example 6, 7, and 8 should all go in
   the advanced section. Section 5.1.1 should go to advanced.
   Example 12, 13, and 16 should go to advanced. String
   Internationalization could go to advanced.
Markus Lanthaler:  I don't want Link relationship example to be
   moved to advanced concepts.
Markus Lanthaler:  I also don't want @vocab overriding moved to
   advanced.
Gregg Kellogg:  I don't agree - overriding is more advanced of a
   concept.
Niklas Lindström:  I agree.
Niklas Lindström:  Prefix expansion could be in Basic... but
   perhaps not - I could go either way.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think the simple use of JSON-LD is using terms
   and not CURIEs.
Niklas Lindström: true
Manu Sporny:  The advanced section is okay with the flow, I
   guess. Some of them are difficult to compare - how should we
   introduce them, in what order?
Niklas Lindström:  If it's hard to compare the relative
   difficulty of advanced concepts, then perhaps having to introduce
   them in the same order as the basic section would be good.
Markus Lanthaler:  Should Data Model and JSON-LD Grammar be
   appendixes since they're normative?
Manu Sporny:  I like them as an appendix.
Niklas Lindström:  Yeah, they could be a normal section.
Gregg Kellogg:  I think the consensus was that there was no
   problem with having a normative appendix.
Markus Lanthaler:  It looks weird if all normative statements are
   in an appendix.
Gregg Kellogg:  This is supposed to be the primary entry point
   for folks - that's why it's in an appendix, I think it works
   pretty well, other than having the issue of term definitions.
Gregg Kellogg:  Some people may print this out and try read it.
Paul Kuykendall: The Data Model and Grammar sections also end up
   having lots of definitions that are almost required to understand
   the concepts from the earlier sections. Having some reference in
   the terms section to point there would be helpful
Paul Kuykendall: By the way, I print the specs so can write on
   them.
Discussion Data mModel and Grammar not being in an appendix, end
   result is to keep it as an appendix unless we get feedback to the
   contrary from the LC reviews.

Topic: Editor/Author Attribution Order

Manu Sporny:  I'm always hesitant to have these sorts of
   discussions too often, but it came up because the Editor's agreed
   to move Mark Birbeck's name from the Author section to the
   Acknowledgements section and give him a few sentences thanking
   him for RDFj (which spurred the JSON-LD work, some of which is
   based on RDFj concepts). Markus also moved Dave Longley to the
   end of the Author's list for the Syntax spec, which was a big
   problem.
Manu Sporny:  I think Markus was looking at this when he made the
   decision:
   https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/graphs/contributors
Manu Sporny:  I don't think making authoring/editorial decisions
   based solely on number of commits is a good idea. I think all of
   us have a pretty good feeling for who contributed what and how
   much, so this discussion is to try and come to a consensus about
   that.
Manu Sporny:  Ownership over anything is always dicey and can
   create bad feelings. We want to be fair to everyone, most people
   value their contributions more than others because they know what
   went into their contributions. Some folks are better at asking
   for recognition than others, some are too generous, others not so
   much. So, that's why we need to have the discussion - to pick an
   order that is fair. This is the current order:
http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/
http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/
Manu Sporny:  Any thoughts before I present an ordering?
Gregg Kellogg:  I think that Markus has done a great deal of
   work, and I'd be happy to switch with him on the list. I also
   want to make sure my contribution is recognized. There is more to
   putting these specs through the process than just writing them.
   You need to know what to write, what to change, what not to
   write, implement, manage expectations with other groups,
   coordinate, bug triage, think deeply about the problem, etc.
Gregg Kellogg:  Manu, you have the most spec experience. This is
   a charged thing, I want to be known for the contributions I made
   to this, but also want to be fair to all.
David I. Lehn: there is always the fallback to alphabetical order
Manu Sporny: I abhor alphabetical order because I think it's
   about as unfair as you can get when listing contributions to a
   particular document. Many of us have put in hundreds of hours
   into this specification, to list people alphabetically is just
   wrong. We should identify who did the most work, gather consensus
   around it, and that should be the order. That is what's fair.
Manu Sporny:  The proposal is to keep the authors in the JSON-LD
   1.0 syntax as is, as that reflects reality.
Manu Sporny:  The proposal for the JSON-LD Algorithms and API
   spec would be Editors: Markus, Gregg, and Manu. Authors: Dave,
   Gregg, Markus, Manu
Niklas Lindström: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Manu Sporny: +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1
Manu Sporny:  Then that's settled and wasn't nearly as painful as
   I was dreading. Good to know we're all on the same page. We have
   to make the acknowledgements section better - definitely for
   Mark. We need to add Ivan and Stephane as well (and Lin if she's
   not already on there).

-- manu

-- 
Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny, G+: +Manu Sporny)
President/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
blog: Aaron Swartz, PaySwarm, and Academic Journals
http://manu.sporny.org/2013/payswarm-journals/
Received on Tuesday, 22 January 2013 22:10:32 GMT

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