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Re: PROV Last Call - RDF WG review request

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:10:29 -0500
Cc: Richard Cyganiak <richard@cyganiak.de>, Antoine Zimmermann <antoine.zimmermann@emse.fr>, public-rdf-wg@w3.org, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>
Message-Id: <4734746C-FC0B-4286-84AD-F498A5B8D62C@ihmc.us>
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>

On Oct 10, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Ivan Herman wrote:

> 
> On Oct 10, 2012, at 15:19 , Pat Hayes wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Ivan Herman wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 11:14 , Richard Cyganiak wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 10 Oct 2012, at 16:54, Antoine Zimmermann wrote:
>>>>>> So, they're okay with never using RDF/XML or Turtle or RDFa and always
>>>>>> using TriG or JSON-LD if there are any bundles involved in the
>>>>>> provenance data? If so, yes, that would simplify things. Then they just
>>>>>> need to say a few words about <n,g> pairs, and they're all set.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I cannot say if they are Ok or even if they are considering it seriously, since I'm not involved in the PROV WG, but from what I read in their documents (PROV-DM and PROV-CONSTRAINT, the only ones I've read), it looks like they could simply rely on TriG to serialise PROV documents. They could still use Turtle or RDF/XML for the special---yet common---case of simple provenance instances without bundles.
>>>> 
>>>> In PROV-O they say that how exactly to represent bundle contents is out of scope of PROV-O.
>>>> 
>>>> Using RDF datasets and TriG would work from a technical point of view with a few comments about the assumed relationships between the IRIs and graphs, but they don't attempt that at the moment.
>>> 
>>> No, because this was pending in this WG. I believe that it would be o.k. for that group to add that extra semantic definition if they are so instructed by the RDF WG.
>> 
>> I am not at all sure that this would work for them. They have examples where they clearly want to presume that the 'name' URI of a 'named' structure can be used, in other RDF, to refer to that named structure. We have explicilty rejected adopting any such semantics for RDF datasets, and indeed intend to allow datasets in which the graph 'names' refer to other things than the graphs, while still being paired with the graphs in the dataset. So I believe that the only instruction we can give them is that they are free to use datasets in any way they like, but that the RDF specs provide no guidance at all as to how to use them, and they must define, and rely on, their own specifications to define their own appropriate RDF structures and to say what they intend them to mean. I feel that we should warn them not to presume that the 'names' of 'named graphs' can be used to refer to the graphs. 
>> 
> 
> Maybe I miss something fundamental, but I have the impression that we are in a violent agreement...

OK, thats good. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "instruction" :-)

Pat


> 
> Ivan
> 
>> Pat
>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Funny enough, PROV-O has some examples that use TriG syntax. They don't say what the syntax is, and don't reference any spec that defines the syntax -- they just provide the examples without comment on the syntax.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> That has already been raised as an issue on the LC documents (by me:-) and these will disappear in the CR version of the document.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Richard
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> AZ.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- Sandro
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> AZ.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- Sandro
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -AZ
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Pat
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> from using named graphs and RDF datasets for their bundle. But it's
>>>>>>>>>>> quite the opposite: we have voted for the absence of constraints!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So they can use the RDF dataset data structure the way they want.
>>>>>>>>>>> They simply have to be warned that they should not assume any
>>>>>>>>>>> particular meaning for a dataset. Therefore, if they want to use
>>>>>>>>>>> this for bundles, they'll have to completely describe all the
>>>>>>>>>>> constraints they require when defining a provenance dataset.
>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever constraints they define will be consistent with the RDF
>>>>>>>>>>> specs, since our set of constraints regarding datasets is empty.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So, I'd have no problem telling them to go ahead and use datasets,
>>>>>>>>>>> and be specific in what it means in the context of provenance
>>>>>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --AZ
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Le 05/10/2012 05:40, Pat Hayes a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 4, 2012, at 3:24 PM, David Wood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Pat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 4, 2012, at 15:55, Pat Hayes<phayes@ihmc.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, greetings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been waiting for the WG to make a decision about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> datasets and named graphs before getting back to the PROV
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group, as this is the most relevant to their 'bundle'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature. As far as I can see, our recent decision to gove no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics to datasets means that we contribute nothing to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and the PROV group are on their own to invent their own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graph naming construct and give it the semantics they want,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> independently from the output of this WG.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you concur?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. A bundle is "a named set of descriptions, but it is also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an entity so that its provenance can be described." [1] A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SPARQL dataset "represents a collection of graphs" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "comprises one graph, the default graph, which does not have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name, and zero or more named graphs, where each named graph is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> identified by an IRI." [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is clearly overlap there, but I don't think the overlap
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is anywhere near complete. It doesn't appear that the WG is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> willing to equate a "named set of descriptions" with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "collection of graphs" nor to presuppose some way to then give
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dataset a name via an IRI.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. And it seems to me that it is the second part that really
>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. In their original request for comment they particularly
>>>>>>>>>>>> mentioned named graphs as a topic of interest in connection with
>>>>>>>>>>>> bundles, and I took them to be interested in the possibility
>>>>>>>>>>>> that named graphs could be used to construct bundles or implement
>>>>>>>>>>>> them in RDF in a natural way. I think, now, the only possible
>>>>>>>>>>>> answer is, no.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, it appears to me that we have problems with the PROV-DM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> document's definition of a Bundle from at least two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspectives: We don't have semantics for datasets, nor do we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a syntax that we could equate to a bundle.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think they were expecting to find a ready-made bundle in
>>>>>>>>>>>> RDF, but there is now nothing in RDF which would even be of
>>>>>>>>>>>> utility or help in creating bundles, AFAIKS. They will have to
>>>>>>>>>>>> define their own extension to RDF and give it a purpose-built
>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of their own.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pat
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TriG (as currently conceptualized) could provide a syntax for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bundle iff we decide to adopt some way to name the package
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself (as some extant systems do, by assigning an IRI upon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ingest). I think both of those rather unlikely at this time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> although I don't think implementors will cease doing so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (because it is useful).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I could be wrong since my reading is still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> incomplete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#term-bundle-entity [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rdfDataset
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 4, 2012, at 2:33 PM, David Wood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Paul. We'll get back to you shortly, hopefully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to your 10 Oct deadline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 4, 2012, at 14:52, Paul Groth<p.t.groth@vu.nl>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We had specific questions about PROV-DM and PROV-O that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are keen on getting answered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From the email to the RDF WG chains on July 24, 2012:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "We particularly wanted to call your attention to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bundle feature [5].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Questions we have are: - We are hopeful that the notion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Bundle should map to the notion of graph you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defining. Can you look into this? - In particular, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect to Bundle do you see the construct Mention[6] as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compatible with RDF now and going forward - PROV-DM is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependent on rdf types[7]. Do you envisage any further
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes in the rdf data types?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, any feedback on the PROV-Ontology document
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is greatly appreciated."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, in prov-constraints we wondered about Bundle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and specifically terminology of Document and Bundle work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with terms you will use in RDF. For example, I have heard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the term dataset will be used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are keen on getting feedback as soon as possible so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are CR document is in-line with what is forthcoming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in RDF.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:52 PM, David
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wood<david@3roundstones.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RDF WG has discussed your questions below and we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have decided that it is rather difficult for us to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure that we are responding in the way you wish. As
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you undoubtedly know, the provenance docs are getting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather large and the constraints doc does not stand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alone for review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you able to formulate more targeted questions for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us to consider? For example, are you concerned that a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular feature of PROV Constraints relies upon RDF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics, or a particular interpretation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any more detailed guidance would help our reviewers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greatly. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, Dave -- David Wood, Ph.D. 3 Round Stones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://3roundstones.com Cell: +1 540 538 9137
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2012, at 11:29, David
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wood<david@3roundstones.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you. We acknowledge your request and have it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on our agenda [1] for Wednesday. We will advise our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reviewers to send comments to your comments list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [2].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.09.19#Provenance_Constraints_Review
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> [2] mailto:public-prov-comments@w3.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2012, at 07:07, Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groth<p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Guus, David,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you've seen, we just published last call of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Constraints of the PROV Data Model [1]. We are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in the RDF WG feedback on this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Questions we have are: - Does the terminology,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bundle and Document work with the terminology in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the RDF WG? - With respect to Bundle and Document
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do the defined constraints work with what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially being specified in RDF?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are looking forward to your feedback on this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document and also the other last call documents.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your time, Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- -- Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Computer Science - The Network Institute VU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> University Amsterdam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- -- Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/ Assistant Professor -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Knowledge Representation& Reasoning Group | Artificial
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Network Institute VU University Amsterdam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 40 South Alcaniz St.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (850)202 4416 office Pensacola (850)202 4440 fax FL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> IHMC (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4416 office Pensacola (850)202 4440
>>>>>>>>>>>> fax FL 32502 (850)291 0667 mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -- Antoine Zimmermann ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol École
>>>>>>>>>>> Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne 158 cours Fauriel
>>>>>>>>>>> 42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2 France Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 66 03
>>>>>>>>>>> Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66 http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ IHMC
>>>>>>>>>> (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973 40 South Alcaniz St.
>>>>>>>>>> (850)202 4416 office Pensacola (850)202
>>>>>>>>>> 4440 fax FL 32502 (850)291 0667
>>>>>>>>>> mobile phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Antoine Zimmermann
>>>>> ISCOD / LSTI - Institut Henri Fayol
>>>>> École Nationale Supérieure des Mines de Saint-Étienne
>>>>> 158 cours Fauriel
>>>>> 42023 Saint-Étienne Cedex 2
>>>>> France
>>>>> Tél:+33(0)4 77 42 66 03
>>>>> Fax:+33(0)4 77 42 66 66
>>>>> http://zimmer.aprilfoolsreview.com/
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   
>> 40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
>> Pensacola                            (850)202 4440   fax
>> FL 32502                              (850)291 0667   mobile
>> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Wednesday, 10 October 2012 20:11:17 GMT

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