W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-wg@w3.org > February 2012

[ALL] minutes 8 Feb telecon

From: Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:26:33 -0500
To: RDF WG <public-rdf-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20120208182632.GD21756@w3.org>
> Agenda is at:
> 
>   http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.02.08

Minutes are at:
  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08
and below:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 08 February 2012

   Seen
          [1]Alex Hall, [2]Andy Seaborne, [3]Antoine Zimmermann, [4]Arnaud
          Le Hors, [5]Dan Brickley, [6]David Wood, [7]Eric Prud'hommeaux,
          [8]Gavin Carothers, [9]Guus Schreiber, [10]Ivan Herman,
          [11]Nicholas Humfrey, [12]Peter Patel-Schneider,
          [13]Pierre-Antoine Champin, [14]Sandro Hawke, [15]Scott Bauer,
          [16]Souripriya Das, [17]Steve Harris, [18]Ted Thibodeau,
          [19]Yves Raimond, [20]Zhe Wu

   Scribe
          [21]Steve Harris, [22]Eric Prud'hommeaux

   IRC Log
          [23]Original and [24]Editable Wiki Version

   Resolutions
          None.

   Topics

         1. [25]named graphs

15:56:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-rdf-wg-irc

   RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-rdf-wg-irc [27]<-
15:56:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

   Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world [28]<-
15:56:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 [29]<-
15:56:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 m
inutes

   Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start
   in 4 minutes [30]<-
15:56:41 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:56:41 <trackbot> Date: 08 February 2012
15:57:08 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

   [31]Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394 [32]<-
15:57:08 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

   Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM [33]<-
15:58:55 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

   [34]Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip [35]<-
15:58:55 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

   Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made [36]<-
15:58:56 <Zakim> +Ivan

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan [37]<-
15:59:36 <Zakim> +Guus

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus [38]<-
15:59:49 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?

   [39]Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? [40]<-
15:59:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, Ivan, Guus

   Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P5, Ivan, Guus [41]<-
15:59:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P5 is me

   [42]Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P5 is me [43]<-
15:59:54 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it [44]<-
15:59:56 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider [45]<-
16:00:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

   Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software [46]<-
16:00:38 <Zakim> + +33.9.54.07.aaaa

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.9.54.07.aaaa [47]<-
16:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

   [48]Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me [49]<-
16:00:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it [50]<-
16:00:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

   [51]Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me [52]<-
16:00:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

   Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted [53]<-
16:00:43 <Zakim> +??P13

   Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 [54]<-
16:00:53 <AZ> zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaaa is me

   [55]Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaaa is me [56]<-
16:00:53 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it [57]<-
16:00:54 <NickH> Zakim, ??P13 is me

   [58]Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P13 is me [59]<-
16:00:54 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it [60]<-
16:00:59 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aabb [61]<-
16:00:59 <AZ> zakim, mute me

   [62]Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me [63]<-
16:01:01 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

   Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted [64]<-
16:01:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aacc [65]<-
16:01:02 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

   [66]Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me [67]<-
16:01:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

   Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted [68]<-
16:01:10 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me

   [69]Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aabb is me [70]<-
16:01:10 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it [71]<-
16:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aadd

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aadd [72]<-
16:01:31 <AlexHall> zakim, aadd is me

   [73]Alex Hall: zakim, aadd is me [74]<-
16:01:31 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it [75]<-
16:01:33 <Zakim> +Sandro

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro [76]<-
16:01:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: 8 Feb -- http://www.w3.org/20
11/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.02.08

   [77]Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: 8 Feb --
   [78]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.02.08
   [79]<-
16:01:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

   [80]Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? [81]<-
16:01:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Ivan, Guus, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ma
cTed (muted), AZ (muted), NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.408.996.aacc, AlexHall, Sand
ro

   Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Ivan, Guus,
   Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed (muted), AZ (muted), NickH (muted),
   gavinc, +1.408.996.aacc, AlexHall, Sandro [82]<-
16:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, pfps, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, RRSAgent, AZ,
 ScottB, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, Guus, MacTed, mischat, ivan, danbri, SteveH, yvesr,
 davidwood, mdmdm, manu, trackbot,

   Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, pfps, Arnaud, gavinc, swh,
   RRSAgent, AZ, ScottB, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, Guus, MacTed, mischat, ivan,
   danbri, SteveH, yvesr, davidwood, mdmdm, manu, trackbot, [83]<-
16:02:02 <Zakim> ... manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP

   Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP [84]<-
16:02:04 <Zakim> +??P17

   Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 [85]<-
16:02:09 <swh> Zakim, ??P17 is me

   [86]Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P17 is me [87]<-
16:02:20 <Zakim> +swh; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it [88]<-
16:02:24 <Zakim> +Tony

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony [89]<-
16:02:42 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is me

   [90]Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me [91]<-
16:02:42 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it [92]<-
16:03:46 <Zakim> +??P24

   Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24 [93]<-
16:03:51 <AndyS> zakim, ??P24 is me

   [94]Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P24 is me [95]<-
16:03:51 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it [96]<-
16:04:02 <Zakim> +davidwood

   Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood [97]<-
16:04:15 <Zakim> + +44.117.230.aaee

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.117.230.aaee [98]<-
16:04:23 <danbri> zakim, +44.117.230.aaee is danbri

   [99]Dan Brickley: zakim, +44.117.230.aaee is danbri [100]<-
16:04:25 <Zakim> +danbri; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +danbri; got it [101]<-
16:05:27 <danbri> (we've got a breather...)

   [102]Dan Brickley: (we've got a breather...) [103]<-
16:05:43 <swh> scribe: swh

   (Scribe set to [104]Steve Harris)
16:05:48 <swh> scribenick: swh
16:06:29 <pfps> minutes look fine

   [105]Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look fine [106]<-
16:06:35 <swh> PROPOSED: accept minuites of last week

   PROPOSED: accept minuites of last week [107]<-
16:06:55 <swh> RESOLVED

   RESOLVED [108]<-
16:06:57 <zwu2> zakim, code?

   [109]Zhe Wu: zakim, code? [110]<-
16:06:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voi
p.w3.org), zwu2

   Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200
   sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 [111]<-
16:07:07 <swh> Pending review items

   Pending review items [112]<-
16:07:14 <swh> close ACTION-166

   close [113]ACTION-166 [114]<-
16:07:14 <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-166 failed, please let sysre
q know about it

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry... adding notes to [115]ACTION-166 failed,
   please let sysreq know about it [116]<-
16:07:29 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaff [117]<-
16:07:38 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me

   [118]Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me [119]<-
16:07:38 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it [120]<-
16:09:10 <Zakim> +[Sophia]

   Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia] [121]<-
16:10:53 <Zakim> +EricP

   Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP [122]<-
16:11:47 <Zakim> -AndyS

   Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS [123]<-
16:12:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

   Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] [124]<-
16:12:16 <danbri> (was I audible?)

   [125]Dan Brickley: (was I audible?) [126]<-
16:12:21 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

   [127]Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me [128]<-
16:12:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it [129]<-
16:13:15 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aagg

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.318.aagg [130]<-
16:13:55 <swh> One more review since last week

   One more review since last week [131]<-
16:14:49 <swh> AlexHall: there's a lot of cleanup in XSD around defn's of lexica
l and value spaces, and mapping. RDF doesn't say anything about them. Just refer
s to them. No action needed.

   [132]Alex Hall: there's a lot of cleanup in XSD around defn's of
   lexical and value spaces, and mapping. RDF doesn't say anything about
   them. Just refers to them. No action needed. [133]<-
16:14:59 <Zakim> +??P37

   Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37 [134]<-
16:15:10 <swh> ... one change that needs discussion is distinction between ident
ity and equality

   ... one change that needs discussion is distinction between identity
   and equality [135]<-
16:15:11 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

   [136]Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? [137]<-
16:15:14 <Guus> zakim, who is talking?

   [138]Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is talking? [139]<-
16:15:22 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the followi
ng: Guus (14%), AlexHall (19%), AndyS (13%)

   Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the
   following: Guus (14%), AlexHall (19%), AndyS (13%) [140]<-
16:15:33 <Zakim> Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following
: Guus (9%), swh (5%), AlexHall (94%)

   Zakim IRC Bot: Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the
   following: Guus (9%), swh (5%), AlexHall (94%) [141]<-
16:16:00 <swh> ... has implications around entailment - for eg. +0 and -0 are di
stinct under XSD 1.1, but were equiv under 1.0

   ... has implications around entailment - for eg. +0 and -0 are distinct
   under XSD 1.1, but were equiv under 1.0 [142]<-
16:16:20 <swh> ... NaN has implications for SPARQL, but not RDF

   ... NaN has implications for SPARQL, but not RDF [143]<-
16:16:30 <Zakim> -AndyS

   Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS [144]<-
16:16:55 <swh> ... we might need to write some text in the semantics document to
 make this clear

   ... we might need to write some text in the semantics document to make
   this clear [145]<-
16:17:00 <Zakim> +??P24

   Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24 [146]<-
16:17:04 <AndyS> zakim, P24 is me

   [147]Andy Seaborne: zakim, P24 is me [148]<-
16:17:04 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'

   Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'
   [149]<-
16:17:11 <AndyS> zakim, ??P24 is me

   [150]Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P24 is me [151]<-
16:17:11 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it [152]<-
16:18:04 <swh> ... should probably include duration as well as the datetime etc.
 datatypes in the types that are good for use with RDF

   ... should probably include duration as well as the datetime etc.
   datatypes in the types that are good for use with RDF [153]<-
16:18:17 <swh> Guus: we should raise that as an issue

   [154]Guus Schreiber: we should raise that as an issue [155]<-
16:18:29 <swh> AlexHall: there's already an older issue

   [156]Alex Hall: there's already an older issue [157]<-
16:18:44 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/66

   [158]Alex Hall: [159]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/66
   [160]<-
16:19:46 <swh> Guus: should add that review to ISSUE-66

   [161]Guus Schreiber: should add that review to [162]ISSUE-66 [163]<-
16:20:36 <swh> Turtle

   Turtle [164]<-
16:20:56 <swh> Guus: things came up this week, from Ivan w.r.t. multiline commen
ts

   [165]Guus Schreiber: things came up this week, from Ivan w.r.t.
   multiline comments [166]<-
16:21:20 <swh> gavinc: read through it, not had time to write an email

   [167]Gavin Carothers: read through it, not had time to write an email
   [168]<-
16:21:35 <swh> ... comment that we should do it like python is a problem because
 python doesn't

   ... comment that we should do it like python is a problem because
   python doesn't [169]<-
16:21:45 <swh> ... have multiline comments

   ... have multiline comments [170]<-
16:22:00 <sandro> ?   CSS has multiline comments.

   [171]Sandro Hawke: ? CSS has multiline comments. [172]<-
16:22:05 <swh> ... CSS only has single line comments, I don't see it as major pr
oblem

   ... CSS only has single line comments, I don't see it as major problem
   [173]<-
16:22:07 <sandro> ???

   [174]Sandro Hawke: ??? [175]<-
16:22:16 <Zakim> +Souri

   Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri [176]<-
16:22:17 <Zakim> -zwu2

   Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 [177]<-
16:22:31 <swh> Danny Ayres had a comment

   Danny Ayres had a comment [178]<-
16:22:47 <danbri> re CSS .... /* I thought it \n did */

   [179]Dan Brickley: re CSS .... /* I thought it \n did */ [180]<-
16:22:47 <swh> gavinc: yes, CSS does have multiline comments

   [181]Gavin Carothers: yes, CSS does have multiline comments [182]<-
16:23:13 <swh> ... we could do what python does, but seems like a large change

   ... we could do what python does, but seems like a large change [183]<-
16:23:30 <swh> Guus: ask gavinc or ericP to respond to Danny

   [184]Guus Schreiber: ask gavinc or ericP to respond to Danny [185]<-
16:23:36 <swh> ericP: do we need a descision?

   [186]Eric Prud'hommeaux: do we need a descision? [187]<-
16:23:45 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#comments       "similar to those in
 the C programming language"

   [188]Sandro Hawke: [189]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#comments "similar to
   those in the C programming language" [190]<-
16:23:52 <swh> ... we want to keep alignment with SPARQL etc.

   ... we want to keep alignment with SPARQL etc. [191]<-
16:23:54 <ivan> q+

   [192]Ivan Herman: q+ [193]<-
16:24:22 <gavinc> sandro, Yeah, I have have no idea where my brain was

   [194]Gavin Carothers: sandro, Yeah, I have have no idea where my brain
   was [195]<-
16:24:32 <swh> ericP: I feel like I have lack of authority

   [196]Eric Prud'hommeaux: I feel like I have lack of authority [197]<-
16:24:48 <swh> Guus: might be best to raise an issue

   [198]Guus Schreiber: might be best to raise an issue [199]<-
16:24:50 <sandro> Yeah, I think this needs a WG resolution.

   [200]Sandro Hawke: Yeah, I think this needs a WG resolution. [201]<-
16:25:27 <AndyS> ack ivan

   [202]Andy Seaborne: ack ivan [203]<-
16:25:45 <swh> ivan: was a discussion danny raised on swig, not formally raised
on this group, Ivan just drew groups attention to it

   [204]Ivan Herman: was a discussion danny raised on swig, not formally
   raised on this group, Ivan just drew groups attention to it [205]<-
16:25:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aahh

   Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.438.aahh [206]<-
16:26:21 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aahh is me

   [207]Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.603.438.aahh is me [208]<-
16:26:21 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

   Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it [209]<-
16:26:22 <swh> Guus: I think it would be in the spirit to regard this as a comme
nt

   [210]Guus Schreiber: I think it would be in the spirit to regard this
   as a comment [211]<-
16:26:42 <swh> ... ericP and gavinc, please take an action

   ... ericP and gavinc, please take an action [212]<-
16:27:01 <swh> ACTION: ericP to repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny A
yres

   ACTION: ericP to repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres
   [213]<-
16:27:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Repsond to multiline comments comment o
f Danny Ayres [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Created [214]ACTION-142 - Repsond to multiline
   comments comment of Danny Ayres [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due
   2012-02-15]. [215]<-
16:27:22 <swh> Guus: 2nd issue, raised by Alex, on local name escapes

   [216]Guus Schreiber: 2nd issue, raised by Alex, on local name escapes
   [217]<-
16:27:48 <swh> AlexHall: one issue is a typo... [noise]

   [218]Alex Hall: one issue is a typo... [noise] [219]<-
16:28:18 <swh> ... double \ was shown as introducing a char escape squence

   ... double \ was shown as introducing a char escape squence [220]<-
16:28:30 <swh> ... the other I was confused by appearance of % escape encoding i
n local part

   ... the other I was confused by appearance of % escape encoding in
   local part [221]<-
16:28:44 <swh> ... want clarification that they're not treated as escapes

   ... want clarification that they're not treated as escapes [222]<-
16:29:02 <swh> ... Andy confirmed for SPARQL, but not Turtle editors

   ... Andy confirmed for SPARQL, but not Turtle editors [223]<-
16:29:37 <AlexHall>  rdf:foo%20bar

   [224]Alex Hall: rdf:foo%20bar [225]<-
16:29:38 <swh> ericP: you concern is whether I can say %68 and have it be equiva
lent to the unencoded version

   [226]Eric Prud'hommeaux: you concern is whether I can say %68 and have
   it be equivalent to the unencoded version [227]<-
16:29:51 <gavinc> on comments, Python still doesn't have multi line comments, no
r Perl, and Ruby has really really funky multi line comment

   [228]Gavin Carothers: on comments, Python still doesn't have multi line
   comments, nor Perl, and Ruby has really really funky multi line comment
   [229]<-
16:29:59 <AndyS> f-o-o-%-2-0-b-a-r

   [230]Andy Seaborne: f-o-o-%-2-0-b-a-r [231]<-
16:30:16 <swh> AlexHall: if I include a % in the localname, is it equiv. to the
unescaped version

   [232]Alex Hall: if I include a % in the localname, is it equiv. to the
   unescaped version [233]<-
16:30:23 <swh> ericP: [writing example]

   [234]Eric Prud'hommeaux: [writing example] [235]<-
16:30:31 <ericP>  my:foob%61ar == my:foobar ?

   [236]Eric Prud'hommeaux: my:foob%61ar == my:foobar ? [237]<-
16:31:16 <swh> ericP: I believe that the % has to stay in there - can't take %s
out and have equivalence

   [238]Eric Prud'hommeaux: I believe that the % has to stay in there -
   can't take %s out and have equivalence [239]<-
16:31:19 <sandro> I think you mean: my:foob%61r -- my:foobar

   [240]Sandro Hawke: I think you mean: my:foob%61r -- my:foobar [241]<-
16:31:52 <swh> AlexHall: I'm worried that people might thing it gets deescaped

   [242]Alex Hall: I'm worried that people might thing it gets deescaped
   [243]<-
16:32:23 <swh> ericP: ok, we need a bit of text saying you're not intended to un
escape during processing

   [244]Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, we need a bit of text saying you're not
   intended to unescape during processing [245]<-
16:32:46 <swh> gavinc: possibly just reference the RFC doc

   [246]Gavin Carothers: possibly just reference the RFC doc [247]<-
16:33:08 <Guus> q?

   [248]Guus Schreiber: q? [249]<-
16:33:10 <swh> §5.3.1- simple string comparison

   §5.3.1- simple string comparison [250]<-
16:35:09 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescape
d while parsing Turtle

   ACTION: ericP to propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while
   parsing Turtle [251]<-
16:35:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* u
nescaped while parsing Turtle [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Created [252]ACTION-143 - Propose text to say that
   %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle [on Eric Prud'hommeaux -
   due 2012-02-15]. [253]<-
16:35:58 <swh> gavinc: do want to look at publishing a new draft of Turtle soon

   [254]Gavin Carothers: do want to look at publishing a new draft of
   Turtle soon [255]<-
16:36:03 <Zakim> - +1.707.318.aagg

   Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.318.aagg [256]<-
16:36:09 <ivan> +1 to gavinc

   [257]Ivan Herman: +1 to gavinc [258]<-
16:36:12 <swh> ... we have Turtle in HTML, grammar has changed,

   ... we have Turtle in HTML, grammar has changed, [259]<-
16:36:49 <swh> ericP: were there any changes we made without consensus

   [260]Eric Prud'hommeaux: were there any changes we made without
   consensus [261]<-
16:37:01 <swh> Guus: may need formal review if WG wants

   [262]Guus Schreiber: may need formal review if WG wants [263]<-
16:37:48 <swh> Topic: named graphs

1. named graphs

16:37:59 <swh> Guus: want to talk a bit about exchanging data

   [264]Guus Schreiber: want to talk a bit about exchanging data [265]<-
16:38:14 <swh> ... message from AndyS

   ... message from AndyS [266]<-
16:38:32 <AndyS> I don't think we have consensus

   [267]Andy Seaborne: I don't think we have consensus [268]<-
16:38:37 <swh> Guus: AndyS, do you think we reached consensus

   [269]Guus Schreiber: AndyS, do you think we reached consensus [270]<-
16:39:09 <swh> AndyS: I brought it up because it was a priority before

   [271]Andy Seaborne: I brought it up because it was a priority before
   [272]<-
16:39:29 <swh> ... I think Pat and I are agreed about whether it would be best i
f we published the smenatics of the 4th column

   ... I think Pat and I are agreed about whether it would be best if we
   published the smenatics of the 4th column [273]<-
16:39:42 <swh> ... I think we'd like to see it published, but need back compat

   ... I think we'd like to see it published, but need back compat [274]<-
16:40:26 <swh> AndyS: if you look at dbpedia they have a 4th col, but I don't kn
ow what it means, they're not complying to a published method, but it is a useca
se

   [275]Andy Seaborne: if you look at dbpedia they have a 4th col, but I
   don't know what it means, they're not complying to a published method,
   but it is a usecase [276]<-
16:40:53 <swh> Guus: so, you can't use the 4th column as an IRI to fetch the tri
ples

   [277]Guus Schreiber: so, you can't use the 4th column as an IRI to
   fetch the triples [278]<-
16:40:58 <swh> AndyS: no

   [279]Andy Seaborne: no [280]<-
16:41:04 <swh> ... it's got a hash on the end

   ... it's got a hash on the end [281]<-
16:41:11 <swh> ... it's quite profile, and it exists

   ... it's quite profile, and it exists [282]<-
16:41:11 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

   [283]Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me [284]<-
16:41:11 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

   Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted [285]<-
16:41:21 <Guus> q?

   [286]Guus Schreiber: q? [287]<-
16:42:11 <swh> Guus: what is the relationship between the 4th col and the triple
?

   [288]Guus Schreiber: what is the relationship between the 4th col and
   the triple? [289]<-
16:42:19 <swh> MacTed: I don't know, trying to get answer

   [290]Ted Thibodeau: I don't know, trying to get answer [291]<-
16:43:05 <swh> ACTION: MacTed to investigate what the relationship is, and docum
ent it

   ACTION: MacTed to investigate what the relationship is, and document it
   [292]<-
16:43:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Investigate what the relationship is, a
nd document it [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2012-02-15].

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Created [293]ACTION-144 - Investigate what the
   relationship is, and document it [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2012-02-15].
   [294]<-
16:43:17 <swh> AndyS: the consequence is that quads are not just an internal iss
ues

   [295]Andy Seaborne: the consequence is that quads are not just an
   internal issues [296]<-
16:43:24 <swh> ivan: I don't understant

   [297]Ivan Herman: I don't understant [298]<-
16:43:34 <swh> AndyS: I phrased the usecase as being about TriG

   [299]Andy Seaborne: I phrased the usecase as being about TriG [300]<-
16:43:53 <swh> ... it's from the extraction project, not the running service

   ... it's from the extraction project, not the running service [301]<-
16:46:08 <swh>  ACTION-144: relationship between 4th col and triple

   [302]ACTION-144: relationship between 4th col and triple [303]<-
16:46:08 <trackbot> ACTION-144 Investigate what the relationship is, and documen
t it notes added

   Trackbot IRC Bot: [304]ACTION-144 Investigate what the relationship is,
   and document it notes added [305]<-
16:46:26 <swh> Guus: usecase discussion between sandro and AndyS

   [306]Guus Schreiber: usecase discussion between sandro and AndyS
   [307]<-
16:46:43 <davidwood> q+ to ask about the details of the use case

   [308]David Wood: q+ to ask about the details of the use case [309]<-
16:46:53 <swh> ... to illustrate how you go about identifying time-varying gboxe
s

   ... to illustrate how you go about identifying time-varying gboxes
   [310]<-
16:47:01 <davidwood> q-

   [311]David Wood: q- [312]<-
16:47:07 <swh> ... AndyS, sandro, do you think your desgins are the same

   ... AndyS, sandro, do you think your desgins are the same [313]<-
16:47:23 <swh> sandro: we're talking about the same pattern

   [314]Sandro Hawke: we're talking about the same pattern [315]<-
16:47:38 <swh> Guus: that makes it worth exploring in more detail

   [316]Guus Schreiber: that makes it worth exploring in more detail
   [317]<-
16:47:50 <swh> ... in general I'l like to explore more solution designs and appl
y to usecase

   ... in general I'l like to explore more solution designs and apply to
   usecase [318]<-
16:48:07 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriG-REST

   [319]Guus Schreiber: [320]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriG-REST
   [321]<-
16:48:40 <swh> Guus: we started exploring sulution designs

   [322]Guus Schreiber: we started exploring sulution designs [323]<-
16:48:50 <swh> ... try to give a natural language explanation of what it means

   ... try to give a natural language explanation of what it means [324]<-
16:48:58 <swh> ... so non RDF geeks can understand

   ... so non RDF geeks can understand [325]<-
16:49:04 <swh> ... started writing down examples

   ... started writing down examples [326]<-
16:49:17 <swh> ... my question to WG is, is this kind of approach useful?

   ... my question to WG is, is this kind of approach useful? [327]<-
16:49:17 <Zakim> -AZ

   Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ [328]<-
16:49:33 <AndyS> Useful to explore this pattern

   [329]Andy Seaborne: Useful to explore this pattern [330]<-
16:49:58 <swh> ... in the 3rd usecase sandro has a statement about static graph
container, those appear in AndyS's solution too

   ... in the 3rd usecase sandro has a statement about static graph
   container, those appear in AndyS's solution too [331]<-
16:50:07 <swh> ... do we want to define that, and if so, in what namespace

   ... do we want to define that, and if so, in what namespace [332]<-
16:50:12 <ivan> q+

   [333]Ivan Herman: q+ [334]<-
16:50:17 <swh> no moee namespaces please

   no moee namespaces please [335]<-
16:50:23 <sandro> +1

   [336]Sandro Hawke: +1 [337]<-
16:50:26 <swh> Guus: is it useful to look at these designs?

   [338]Guus Schreiber: is it useful to look at these designs? [339]<-
16:50:36 <AndyS> q?

   [340]Andy Seaborne: q? [341]<-
16:50:37 <sandro> +1 on looking at solutions in more detail

   [342]Sandro Hawke: +1 on looking at solutions in more detail [343]<-
16:50:41 <swh> +1

   +1 [344]<-
16:50:59 <pchampin> +1

   [345]Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 [346]<-
16:51:01 <Zakim> +AZ

   Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ [347]<-
16:51:02 <swh> ivan: we certainly have to move on and look at possibilities

   [348]Ivan Herman: we certainly have to move on and look at
   possibilities [349]<-
16:51:04 <AZ> zakim, mute me

   [350]Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me [351]<-
16:51:04 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

   Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted [352]<-
16:51:31 <swh> ... what I don't fully understand is that the usecase means the s
emantics of GET, but does it mean that you would have other semantics?

   ... what I don't fully understand is that the usecase means the
   semantics of GET, but does it mean that you would have other semantics?
   [353]<-
16:51:49 <swh> Guus: how do we do the page structuring? I thought one page per s
olution

   [354]Guus Schreiber: how do we do the page structuring? I thought one
   page per solution [355]<-
16:52:07 <swh> ... tried to come up with nat lang description of TriG RESR

   ... tried to come up with nat lang description of TriG REST [356]<-
16:52:14 <swh> s/RESR/REST/
16:52:30 <MacTed> AndyS - do you have a sample fourth-column value from those DB
pedia dumps?

   [357]Ted Thibodeau: AndyS - do you have a sample fourth-column value
   from those DBpedia dumps? [358]<-
16:52:33 <swh> sandro: at a tutorial level the text description is ok

   [359]Sandro Hawke: at a tutorial level the text description is ok
   [360]<-
16:52:45 <swh> ivan: I would prefer to see all on one page

   [361]Ivan Herman: I would prefer to see all on one page [362]<-
16:52:50 <swh> Guus: no problem

   [363]Guus Schreiber: no problem [364]<-
16:52:54 <MacTed> (even better, a full row or two from any of those N-quad files
)

   [365]Ted Thibodeau: (even better, a full row or two from any of those
   N-quad files) [366]<-
16:52:55 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

   [367]Sandro Hawke:
   [368]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs [369]<-
16:53:02 <AndyS> MacTed - the load page has samples IIRC

   [370]Andy Seaborne: MacTed - the load page has samples IIRC [371]<-
16:53:12 <swh> sandro: I was doing the same thing

   [372]Sandro Hawke: I was doing the same thing [373]<-
16:53:28 <AndyS> ... not sure if they are representative enough.

   [374]Andy Seaborne: ... not sure if they are representative enough.
   [375]<-
16:54:00 <swh> sandro: my impression right now is that most of the group is not
following this closely enough to make descisions about it

   [376]Sandro Hawke: my impression right now is that most of the group is
   not following this closely enough to make descisions about it [377]<-
16:54:26 <swh> Guus: I prefer to see people owning solutions

   [378]Guus Schreiber: I prefer to see people owning solutions [379]<-
16:54:47 <swh> sandro: don't want to get too emotionally involved

   [380]Sandro Hawke: don't want to get too emotionally involved [381]<-
16:55:07 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

   (Scribe set to [382]Eric Prud'hommeaux)
16:55:08 <Zakim> -swh

   Zakim IRC Bot: -swh [383]<-
16:55:28 <ericP> Guus: happy to write more examples for this solution

   [384]Guus Schreiber: happy to write more examples for this solution
   [385]<-
16:56:13 <ericP> ... i'll try to stay impartial in my defense of this solution

   ... i'll try to stay impartial in my defense of this solution [386]<-
16:56:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

   [387]Sandro Hawke:
   [388]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs [389]<-
16:56:38 <ericP> ... and there's the equality use case?

   ... and there's the equality use case? [390]<-
16:57:15 <ericP> sandro: in TF-Graphs-Designs, the first is "trig state" (earlie
r called "trig rest") (subject of guus's page)

   [391]Sandro Hawke: in TF-Graphs-Designs, the first is "trig state"
   (earlier called "trig rest") (subject of guus's page) [392]<-
16:57:26 <ericP> ... second is "trig equality"

   ... second is "trig equality" [393]<-
16:57:47 <ericP> Guus: where the lable is a placeholder for the set of triples,
instead of pointing to it

   [394]Guus Schreiber: where the lable is a placeholder for the set of
   triples, instead of pointing to it [395]<-
16:59:05 <ericP> sandro: 3rd is the n3 style of explicitly naming the relation (
scroll down to "graph object")

   [396]Sandro Hawke: 3rd is the n3 style of explicitly naming the
   relation (scroll down to "graph object") [397]<-
17:00:48 <ericP> ... "Graph Objects" is triples, where nodes can be graphs

   ... "Graph Objects" is triples, where nodes can be graphs [398]<-
17:01:09 <zwu2> q+

   [399]Zhe Wu: q+ [400]<-
17:01:19 <ivan> q-

   [401]Ivan Herman: q- [402]<-
17:01:22 <ericP> Guus: could be seen at quints, e.g.:

   [403]Guus Schreiber: could be seen at quints, e.g.: [404]<-
17:01:23 <danbri> (regarding 'bigger than RDF', I always think of RDF as http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ... and quads as adding an extra dimension...)

   [405]Dan Brickley: (regarding 'bigger than RDF', I always think of RDF
   as [406]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ... and quads as adding
   an extra dimension...) [407]<-
17:01:44 <ericP> ... eg:s1 eg:p1 eg:o1. eg:g1 rdf:graphState

   ... eg:s1 eg:p1 eg:o1. eg:g1 rdf:graphState [408]<-
17:01:52 <yvesr> it is possible to store such things in a quad store (that's how
 my SWI-Prolog N3 implementation works)

   [409]Yves Raimond: it is possible to store such things in a quad store
   (that's how my SWI-Prolog N3 implementation works) [410]<-
17:02:09 <ericP> sandro: steve argued that there's a problematic computational o
verhead to this approach

   [411]Sandro Hawke: steve argued that there's a problematic
   computational overhead to this approach [412]<-
17:03:06 <ericP> ... distinction between Graph Objects and Graph Datatypes is th
at former has graphs in the object position and latter has turtle literals

   ... distinction between Graph Objects and Graph Datatypes is that
   former has graphs in the object position and latter has turtle literals
   [413]<-
17:04:41 <sandro> the type of the thing identified by the label.

   [414]Sandro Hawke: the type of the thing identified by the label.
   [415]<-
17:04:41 <pchampin> re 5., I would be more comfortable with something more keywo
rdish, like "@graphLabelRelation rdf:graphState"

   [416]Pierre-Antoine Champin: re 5., I would be more comfortable with
   something more keywordish, like "@graphLabelRelation rdf:graphState"
   [417]<-
17:04:47 <ericP> AndyS: [re: Relation Flag"] i was imagining the the modifier ap
plied to each triple, e.g. eg:s eg:p eg:o. eg:g

   [418]Andy Seaborne: [re: Relation Flag"] i was imagining the the
   modifier applied to each triple, e.g. eg:s eg:p eg:o. eg:g [419]<-
17:06:21 <ericP> Guus: in AndyS's Oct mail, he used types like StaticGraphContai
ner

   [420]Guus Schreiber: in AndyS's Oct mail, he used types like
   StaticGraphContainer [421]<-
17:06:38 <ericP> ... these are close to Graph Objects

   ... these are close to Graph Objects [422]<-
17:07:11 <ericP> sandro: with trig state, there are precise semantics which i th
ink are distinguishable [from andy's mail]

   [423]Sandro Hawke: with trig state, there are precise semantics which i
   think are distinguishable [from andy's mail] [424]<-
17:07:50 <AndyS> q?

   [425]Andy Seaborne: q? [426]<-
17:07:53 <Guus> q?

   [427]Guus Schreiber: q? [428]<-
17:07:55 <ericP> ... calling Andy's proposal "typed @@1"

   ... calling Andy's proposal "typed @@1" [429]<-
17:08:28 <ericP> zwu: with graphs as objects, how could you enforce equality?

   [430]Zhe Wu: with graphs as objects, how could you enforce equality?
   [431]<-
17:08:57 <ericP> ericP: i.e. have the same extension?

   [432]Eric Prud'hommeaux: i.e. have the same extension? [433]<-
17:09:12 <ericP> zwu: right, owl:sameAs has powerful semantics

   [434]Zhe Wu: right, owl:sameAs has powerful semantics [435]<-
17:09:40 <ericP> sandro: hasn't come up in the use cases, but you could say

   [436]Sandro Hawke: hasn't come up in the use cases, but you could say
   [437]<-
17:10:09 <AndyS> """The built-in OWL property owl:sameAs links an individual to
an individual."""

   [438]Andy Seaborne: """The built-in OWL property owl:sameAs links an
   individual to an individual.""" [439]<-
17:10:12 <ericP> ... ^h^h^h utter some inconsistency which was computationally h
ard to catch

   ... ^h^h^h utter some inconsistency which was computationally hard to
   catch [440]<-
17:10:28 <Souri> +1 to calling it something else

   [441]Souripriya Das: +1 to calling it something else [442]<-
17:10:53 <sandro> ivan: later, we can say sameas is sameas sameas

   [443]Ivan Herman: later, we can say sameas is sameas sameas [ Scribe
   Assist by [444]Sandro Hawke ] [445]<-
17:10:57 <pchampin> sameGraph ?

   [446]Pierre-Antoine Champin: sameGraph ? [447]<-
17:10:58 <ericP> ... so if we use owl:sameAs, are we bringing in baggage? happy
to use something else

   ... so if we use owl:sameAs, are we bringing in baggage? happy to use
   something else [448]<-
17:11:06 <ericP> ... sameGraphAs

   ... sameGraphAs [449]<-
17:11:23 <MacTed> -1000 sameGraphAs

   [450]Ted Thibodeau: -1000 sameGraphAs [451]<-
17:11:30 <ericP> zwu: triple order and bnodes make it hard

   [452]Zhe Wu: triple order and bnodes make it hard [453]<-
17:11:32 <MacTed> sameGbox maybe

   [454]Ted Thibodeau: sameGbox maybe [455]<-
17:11:32 <AndyS> It is expensive to test for equality.  See JJC paper.

   [456]Andy Seaborne: It is expensive to test for equality. See JJC
   paper. [457]<-
17:12:00 <MacTed> (implying also sameGsnap, sameGtext)

   [458]Ted Thibodeau: (implying also sameGsnap, sameGtext) [459]<-
17:12:06 <pchampin> @MacTed no, as I get it, the idea is to identify the g-snap
here, to the g-box

   [460]Pierre-Antoine Champin: @MacTed no, as I get it, the idea is to
   identify the g-snap here, to the g-box [461]<-
17:12:44 <gavinc> Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism

   [462]Gavin Carothers: Please see
   [463]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism [464]<-
17:12:49 <sandro> MacTed, how about rdf:isGSnap ?

   [465]Sandro Hawke: MacTed, how about rdf:isGSnap ? [466]<-
17:13:01 <ericP> sandro: i think we can factor out that computation because it's
 not necessary for the use cases

   [467]Sandro Hawke: i think we can factor out that computation because
   it's not necessary for the use cases [468]<-
17:14:29 <ericP> [general exceptance of the term "GSnap"]

   [general acceptance of the term "GSnap"] [469]<-
17:14:55 <ericP> Guus: would like to execute the provenance scenario with these
different designs

   [470]Guus Schreiber: would like to execute the provenance scenario with
   these different designs [471]<-
17:15:12 <ericP> Arnaud: have we defined GSnap et al?

   [472]Arnaud Le Hors: have we defined GSnap et al? [473]<-
17:15:28 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#Graph_Obj
ects edited to use rdf:isGSnap

   [474]Sandro Hawke:
   [475]http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#Graph_Objects
   edited to use rdf:isGSnap [476]<-
17:15:32 <ericP> sandro: plan is that these terms won't make it into the final s
pecs

   [477]Sandro Hawke: plan is that these terms won't make it into the
   final specs [478]<-
17:15:59 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to merge his page with Sandro's

   ACTION: Guus to merge his page with Sandro's [479]<-
17:15:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Merge his page with Sandro's [on Guus S
chreiber - due 2012-02-15].

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Created [480]ACTION-145 - Merge his page with
   Sandro's [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15]. [481]<-
17:17:03 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to write down the provenance scenario example, as
well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia

   ACTION: Guus to write down the provenance scenario example, as well as
   those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia [482]<-
17:17:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Write down the provenance scenario exam
ple, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia [on
 Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].

   Trackbot IRC Bot: Created [483]ACTION-146 - Write down the provenance
   scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and
   the one from DBPedia [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15]. [484]<-
17:17:19 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

   Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider [485]<-
17:17:55 <ericP> Guus: let's start with the three in sandro's message, plus the
one in Andy's message and the keeping-inference-separate examples

   [486]Guus Schreiber: let's start with the three in sandro's message,
   plus the one in Andy's message and the keeping-inference-separate
   examples [487]<-
17:18:19 <AZ> bye

   [488]Antoine Zimmermann: bye [489]<-
17:18:22 <Zakim> -AZ

   Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ [490]<-
17:18:23 <zwu2> bye

   [491]Zhe Wu: bye [492]<-
17:18:27 <danbri> bye!

   [493]Dan Brickley: bye! [494]<-
17:18:27 <Zakim> -zwu2

   Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 [495]<-
17:18:29 <Zakim> -Ivan

   Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan [496]<-
17:18:37 <MacTed> s/general exceptance/general acceptance/
17:18:38 <Zakim> -Souri

   Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri [497]<-
17:18:41 <Zakim> -yvesr

   Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr [498]<-
17:18:43 <Zakim> -NickH

   Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH [499]<-
17:18:47 <Zakim> -AlexHall

   Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall [500]<-
17:18:48 <Zakim> -gavinc

   Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc [501]<-
17:18:52 <Zakim> -ScottB

   Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB [502]<-
17:19:03 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/ ?

   [503]Dan Brickley: [504]http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/ ? [505]<-

   Formatted by [506]CommonScribe (Submit) Show Interleaved IRC Text
     __________________________________________________________________

   This revision (#1) generated 2012-02-08 17:25:54 UTC by 'eric',
   comments: 'I dedicate these notes to the friendship and support of
   Sandro Hawk'

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:alexhall
   2. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:aseaborne
   3. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:azimmerm
   4. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:alehors
   5. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:danbri
   6. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:dwood4
   7. http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/user:eric
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-- 
-ericP
Received on Wednesday, 8 February 2012 18:30:46 UTC

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