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Re: Meeting minutes, 2009-09-17

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:36:00 +0200
Message-ID: <4AB32A50.90407@w3.org>
To: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@webbackplane.com>
CC: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Oops, sorry. I though Zakim sets the present list automatically, and I
did not check...

Added

Ivan

Mark Birbeck wrote:
> Hi Ivan,
> 
> I was also present. (I may need an alibi.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>> Manu had to run to the HTML5 meeting, so I cleaned up the minutes.
>>
>> Here they are online:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html
>>
>> and the text version is below.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>>
>>   [1]W3C
>>
>>      [1] http://www.w3.org/
>>
>>                        RDF in XHTML Task Force
>>
>> 17 Sep 2009
>>
>>   [2]Agenda
>>
>>      [2]
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0147.html
>>
>>   See also: [3]IRC log
>>
>>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-irc
>>
>> Attendees
>>
>>   Present
>>          Manu_Sporny, Steven_Pemberton, Ivan_Herman, Ben_Adida,
>>          Shane_McCarron
>>
>>   Regrets
>>   Chair
>>          Ben_Adida
>>
>>   Scribe
>>          Manu_Sporny
>>
>> Contents
>>
>>     * [4]Contents
>>          + [5]Action Items
>>               o [6]XMLLiteral issue
>>               o [7]Charter related issues
>>          + [8]ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
>>     * [9]Summary of Action Items
>>     _________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>   <msporny> Scribe: Manu_Sporny
>>
>>   <msporny> scribenick: msporny
>>
>>   Previous: [10]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
>>
>>     [10] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html
>>
>> Action Items
>>
>>   <benadida> manu: yes, call at 12pm eastern on HTML and RDFa FPWD
>>
>>   manu: I'll be on that call
>>
>>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
>>   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
>>   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [DONE]
>>
>>     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
>>
>>   <benadida> -->
>>   [12]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript
>>
>>     [12] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-implementors-guide#JavaScript
>>
>>   ben: it will work in HTML5, but not XHTML5
>>
>>   <benadida> ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on
>>   implementors' guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
>>   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
>>
>>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
>>   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
>>   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [DONE]
>>
>>     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
>>
>> XMLLiteral issue
>>
>>   ben: The issue may not be done.
>>   ... This is about XMLLiteral c14n -- is it RDFa's job or the SPARQL
>>   processors job?
>>
>>   ivan: Let's try to close this issue.
>>   ... SPARQL spec doesn't say that it does c14n
>>   ... what this boils down to is that the Test Cases, the SPARQL code
>>   that we use should have the canonicalized XML in it.
>>   ... the test cases are more liberal than they should be when it
>>   comes to c14n
>>
>>   manu: I don't know if the spec is correct.
>>
>>   ivan: Canonical XML states that we should insert the namespaces that
>>   are used in the literal, and nothing more.
>>
>>   manu: We might give a different impression to implementers
>>
>>   ivan: We might want to clarify things as well in a future editors
>>   spec.
>>
>>   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
>>   preservation [recorded in
>>   [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [DONE]
>>
>>     [15] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>>
>>   <benadida> -->
>>   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009S
>>   ep/0158.html
>>
>>     [16]
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0158.html
>>
>>   manu: The test case issues are outlined in that e-mail
>>   ... the other issue is the c14n vs. proper XMLLiteral RDFa
>>   preservation.
>>
>>   ben: Yes, there is an issue here and the issue is slightly larger
>>   than RDFa.
>>
>>   ivan: The SPARQL group are considering an official errata for RDF to
>>   address this issue.
>>   ... This is an issue that came about years ago, but we need to deal
>>   with it.
>>
>>   ben: So, what is the path forward.
>>
>>   <benadida> [17]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter
>>
>>     [17] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-wg-charter
>>
>>   manu: Accept c14n XMLLiteral definition and accept that we won't be
>>   able to preserve namespaces for RDFa in XMLLiterals
>>
>> Charter related issues
>>
>>   <scribe> ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded
>>   in [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>>   [DONE]
>>
>>     [18] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>>
>>   ivan: Let's put the charter off for 6-8 weeks. We're not under huge
>>   pressure to do that.
>>
>>   ben: I don't think we should submit the charter now, but we
>>   shouldn't delay it.
>>
>>   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule
>>
>>   shane: I'm the one who pushed schedule because these things take
>>   time.
>>
>>   ivan: If we do this in November, this shouldn't be an issue.
>>
>>   <benadida> msporny: sam ruby and doug schepers have offered to host
>>   an RDFa TF in HTML and SVG WGs.
>>
>>   <benadida> ben: I'm not convinced that this is a good idea yet.
>>
>>   ivan: A Task Force between two working groups work well when two
>>   groups are friendly with each other.
>>   ... It's also more administration overhead.
>>   ... I'd prefer the RDFa Core work to stay in SWD.
>>
>>   <markbirbeck> Should also add that it works when the two groups are
>>   complementary to each other.
>>
>>   ivan: There are things that we may plan to do that have nothing to
>>   do with HTML.
>>
>>   <markbirbeck> Which is not the case here.
>>
>>   ben: One thing we should try to steer clear of anything that doesn't
>>   follow W3C process.
>>   ... We should be collaborating with HTML WG.
>>   ... We should strive to be true to W3C process.
>>
>>   ivan: Let's wait and see how the HTML+RDFa FPWD works out. If it
>>   works, then that would be best.
>>
>> ISSUE-236: Clarify the meaning of "ignore"
>>
>>   ben: We depend on rel with a bad value and the absence of rel as
>>   being different.
>>   ... We do not do the same for @typeof.
>>
>>   Ivan can you scribe?
>>
>>   I can clean up the minutes afterwards
>>
>>   <ivan> scribenick: ivan
>>
>>   mark: when I made all the changes to cleanup curie processing, then
>>   I might have missed this
>>
>>   shane: wait...
>>
>>   mark: I think the discussion on the list is pretty good
>>
>>   shane: ben said rel="" and rel="rubbish" is not the same thing
>>
>>   mark: if I completely remove rel from an element, then there is no
>>   hanging stuff kick in
>>   ... if there is a rel, then the mechanism does kick in
>>
>>   shane: the real issue is with datatypes
>>   ... and with typeof
>>   ... typeof does not have a special behaviour for typeof=""
>>
>>   mark: the issue does originate from the datatype handling
>>   ... during the course of discussion I discovered that typeof does
>>   not behave like we meant it
>>   ... there are two issues: (1) datatypes and (2) typeof
>>
>>   shane: our intent is clear
>>   ... and all implementations that passed the tests did it like we
>>   intended
>>   ... we can put the two phrases into the places where it needs it
>>   then we are done
>>
>>   manu: do we feel that we have a clear text that we can put in? Did
>>   we check that against the test cases?
>>   ... there might have to add some new test cases
>>   ... i do not know what my parser would do...
>>
>>   mark: the key thing is that it creates a b node
>>
>>   shane: the final piece here is where jeni is incorrect
>>   ... if there is typeof, it generates a bnode, but that one is not
>>   used as a subject of another triple
>>
>>   mark: but it can complete hanging triples
>>
>>   <ShaneM> Jeni says in an email:
>>
>>   <ShaneM> In the case of
>>
>>   <ShaneM> <p xmlns:ex="[19]http://example.org/"
>>   about="[20]http://example.com/" rel="ex:rel3">
>>
>>     [19] http://example.org/
>>     [20] http://example.com/
>>
>>   <ShaneM>    <span property="bogus:bogus" content="Content 3">
>>
>>   <ShaneM>      <span about="[21]http://example.net/">Test 3</span>
>>
>>     [21] http://example.net/
>>
>>   <ShaneM>    </span>
>>
>>   <ShaneM>  </p>
>>
>>   <ShaneM> by the same argument, we should create:
>>
>>   <ShaneM> Default graph:
>>
>>   <ShaneM>   <[22]http://example.com/> <[23]http://example.org/rel3>
>>   _:a .
>>
>>     [22] http://example.com/%3E
>>     [23] http://example.org/rel3%3E
>>
>>   <ShaneM> Graph A:
>>
>>   <ShaneM>   _:a bogus:bogus "Content 3" .
>>
>>   mark: the key thing is to preserve the structure, the hierarchy,
>>   even if the gaps are not filled in
>>
>>   shane: what I pasted in is the bit where she is wrong
>>
>>   mark: I will double check that
>>   ... the mere presence the property will complete the hanging triple
>>   ... so what she says is correct
>>
>>   shane: I think that the spec says explicitly that the bnode should
>>   be used only if it is used down the line
>>
>>   mark: the spec says that graph A may be generated but it is not
>>   required
>>   ... the question is whether the first triple should be generated
>>   ... ie whether the hanging triple should be completed
>>
>>   shane: I do not feel this is what the spec says
>>
>>   mark: but there may be a mistake; the whole point of the default
>>   graph idea is to make such issues valid
>>   ... maybe people can have a read of the spec, I think that triple
>>   should be generated
>>   ... very end of step 4 with the skip element flag
>>   ... and that is reused at point 10
>>   ... maybe people should look at it with their own implementation
>>
>>   manu: meeting adjurned
>>
>> Summary of Action Items
>>
>>   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to update JS xmlns getter code on implementors'
>>   guide for xhtml mime type support [recorded in
>>   [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
>>
>>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to create RDFa WG charter template. [recorded in
>>   [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to put up JS code that implements the xmlns
>>   algorithm on "RDFa Implementors' Guide" wiki [recorded in
>>   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
>>   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to send Philip a "consensus of the task force"
>>   email that there is an issue, but not RDFa's. [recorded in
>>   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
>>   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to review test cases on default namespace
>>   preservation [recorded in
>>   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
>>
>>     [25] http://www.w3.org/2009/08/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>>     [26] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
>>     [27] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
>>     [28] http://www.w3.org/2009/09/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
>>
>>   [End of minutes]
>>     _________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
>>    ([30]CVS log)
>>    $Date: 2009/09/17 16:11:05 $
>>     _________________________________________________________
>>
>>     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>>     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> mobile: +31-641044153
>> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>
> 
> 
> 

-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf


Received on Friday, 18 September 2009 06:36:38 GMT

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