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meeting record: 2009-06-04 RDFa Task Force

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:15:54 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090604141352.04c91d80@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The minutes of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force meeting are now
available as

   http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

04 Jun 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jun/0010.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-05-28

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Sam Ruby, Ralph Swick

   Regrets
          Ben Adida, Michael Hausenblas, Mark Birbeck

   Chair
          Manu

   Scribe
          Ralph, Manu

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Review
         2. issue-214
         3. Copyright for W3C Test Suites
         4. Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues
         5. Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

Action Review

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben to author wiki page with charter template
   for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

   <msporny> [13]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter

     [13] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to go through and categorize issues and
   requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   <msporny>
   [15]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discus
   sion_Order

     [15] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker
   instance [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa
   Wiki [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
   namespace [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

issue-214

   <Ralph> [25]issue-214

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/214

   Ralph: This issue was a comment that came during the SKOS Candidate
   Rec period.
   ... The WG decided that it was more of an editorial question for
   RDFa TF to consider.
   ... There has been a long thread over several years, Ben's aware of
   the thread...

   Ralph: We should consider providing community advice in the case
   where the same URI might be a piece of an RDF vocabulary or a target
   in an HTML document.
   ... In the case where the mimetype of the document is HTML, or
   application/rdf+xml
   ... in the case of RDFa, it's not so clear that an application can
   disambiguate between the two types of documents.
   ... You should not use the same URI for the name in an HTML document
   as well as a term in an RDF vocabulary.
   ... People shouldn't do <p id="foo" about="#foo">

   ShaneM: I disagree
   ... The whole point of RDFa is to embed things in this way.
   ... I have a URI, which is interpreted in the context of the HTTP
   request header.
   ... A semantic web application will follow-your-nose that should
   take you to the definition of a vocabulary item.
   ... I'm going to prefer xml+rdf
   ... from a content negotiation perspective, the server should send
   back what the requester wants.
   ... If the request is rdf+xml, then it should extract the triples
   from the XHTML document and send those back as rdf+xml.

   Ralph: Interesting point.
   ... The old advice might not matter as much anymore?
   ... Eric Prudhommeaux might have something to say about this.

   Ralph: there might be use cases where the subject of a triple might
   well want to be a particular bit of HTML markup

   Manu: might be something to handle in a validator

   Manu: people might do id='foo' and about='foo' when they're doing
   vocabulary authoring
   ... it's nice to be able to drop a vocabulary term into a Web
   browser and see a document

   Ralph: How can we say something about the ID "foo" <p id="foo"
   about="#foo"> and not the about="#foo"

   Shane: and XML requires something of type ID in order for the
   fragment to be valie
   ... in general, id='foo' about='foo' always occurs when you want to
   bind triples to a block in a document
   ... particularly in definitions of terms
   ... when referring to a local definition of a term you'd have an ID
   and you'd bind to it using @about
   ... you might also refer to it in @resource

   Manu: maybe we should create a Wiki page and develop a best practice
   in this area

   ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

Copyright for W3C Test Suites

   Shane: looking for advice on what are acceptable test suite
   copyrights

   Manu: specifically, is the MIT license sufficient?

   ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright [recorded
   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

   <rubys> in general, MIT licensed code can be pulled into almost any
   codebase; the reverse is not necessarily true

Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues

   <msporny>
   [28]http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discus
   sion_Order

     [28] http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order

   Manu: I'd taken action to propose a discussion order

   Sam: suggest moving " Requirement: RDFa signalling mechanism for
   XHTML+RDFa, HTML+RDFa, and how does mime-type affect that
   mechanism?" higher
   ... figure out what the signalling mechanism is
   ... html served as text/xml is interpreted differently by different
   browsers

   Manu: propose to move the signalling discussion after "target of
   RDFa processing rules" and before "Do we need to cut features from
   RDFa to support HTML+RDFa?"

   Shane: fine with me
   ... some of these items have been raised in email but I'm not
   persuaded they're really issues

   Manu: so move "RDFa signalling mechanism" to 2nd position

   Ralph: ok with me

   <rubys> if they aren't really issues, they should be able to be
   disposed of quickly.

Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion

   <msporny>
   [29]http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_pro
   cessing_rules

     [29] http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_processing_rules

   Manu: question is "on what do the RDFa processing rules operate?"
   ... e.g. on a DOM structure [or not]
   ... now we're trying to explain how this works across all languages
   ... and generate the same triples across all document [types]
   ... gets tricky when accounting for serialization issues
   ... goal is to find a set of rules that works on a parse tree or an
   abstract syntax tree rather than on a DOM
   ... so define the rules in a way not based on serialization of a
   specific language

   Shane: Mark has a clever way of thinking about this
   ... and is very persuasive :)
   ... as I understand it, Mark's model is that RDFa is at the
   application layer so whatever the underlying layer provides to the
   application is what should be worked on
   ... this solves the RDFa specification problem but doesn't solve the
   "I want the same triples when I give the same document content to
   different things"
   ... I don't see how we can control the structure of the _input_ to
   RDFa in a meaningful way
   ... will happen differently in legacy browsers, HTML5, new browsers,
   etc.
   ... I'm not optimistic that we'll find a way to guarantee the same
   triples everywhere

   Sam: if we can find a subset that _does_ give the same triples and
   note the other cases with a recommendation not to to those
   ... can't assume that the consumer respects the well-formed input
   requirement
   ... this requirement is routinely ignored

   Shane: ignored by user agents but not by tool chain processors

   Sam: wise to accept that some people will be processing this in
   browsers and give advice on what won't work there

   Shane: I do think we can restrict the language so that it has more
   predictable behaviours under different processing models

   Sam: e.g. if a single document has two names that differ only in
   case, that's probably wierd and don't do it

   Shane: yep, we just never considered that case in our prior
   discussions

   Manu: the test cases put on the mailing list are really good
   starting points
   ... we should be clear about what model the RDFa rules are operating
   on but I do not see a reason to strip out any rules
   ... Mark's position is that we can't control the input to the RDFa
   processing rules
   ... we can't control how things get put into a DOM; that's in the
   domain of the HTML WG
   ... so the RDFa processing rules ought to be restated in terms of
   _some_ incoming model
   ... RDFa might be used in something that has nothing to do with a
   DOM
   ... not a good idea to restrict RDFa to just a DOM
   ... if you run an HTML document through two different processors,
   one producing a DOM and the other not then I don't see how we can
   guarantee in all cases to produce the same triples

   <rubys> I agree with DOM as the answer to question #1... the problem
   is that Drupal is producing content with RDFa, and depending on the
   user agent, it may be processed differently. If you look at
   Phillip's tests there will be cases where they answers will differ,
   and some of these can't be solved. In some cases, the answer may be
   "don't do that". Example: if you define an XML literal and serve the
   content as text/html, be sure that you don't define any content that
   HTML5 processing rules will reorder or change in a way that can't be
   addressed by the parser.

   Manu: they _might_ be the same in some cases but I don't think we
   should try to guarantee the same triples in all cases

   Shane: from personal experience, some of our tests produced foreign
   elements that were removed from the DOM tree I was handed

   Shane: I don't have control over this; I can only work on what I'm
   handed

   Manu: can we come up with an example that shows how a well-formed
   document would generate different triples?

   Shane: comes up when embedding foreign stuff, e.g. SVG -- the SVG
   simply doesn't show up in the DOM
   ... there could be RDFa annotations on the SVG but I've lost them

   <msporny> Thanks for joining us Sam :)

   <msporny> and for your input.

   Shane: the XML literal case may well be the most glaring example
   ... there are several ways to address this and I don't have a strong
   preference for which we pick
   ... I sort-of like Mark's suggestion to change the default to not be
   an XML literal
   ... so you'd only produce an XML literal in a triple when you
   explicitly ask for one

   Manu: the side-effect of making it not automatically an XML literal
   is that it will process the content
   ... e.g. <spam about='foo'> inside the content would cause triples
   to be generated

   Shane: that's probably a corner case
   ... easier to change behavior sooner than later

   Manu: the reason for a change is to make XML literals the same
   between HTML and XHTML
   ... but there's a parallel discussion suggesting that it may be OK
   for the triples to differ given different input

   Shane: the core issue here is whether it makes any sense to generate
   XML literals in a non-XML context

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for
   RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker
   instance [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
   namespace [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
     [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [36] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to go through and categorize issues and
   requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [42] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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