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RDFa TF Meeting minutes of 2009-12-03

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 20:02:07 +0100
Message-ID: <4B180B2F.8010007@w3.org>
To: W3C RDFa task force <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
CC: W3C SW Deployment WG <public-swd-wg@w3.org>
Minutes are at:

http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html

text version below.

Ivan

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                       RDFa in XHTML Task Force

03 Dec 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Dec/0026.html

   Previous: [3]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html

   See also: [4]IRC log

      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Mark Birbeck, Shane McCarron, Ivan Herman,
          Steven Pemberton

   Regrets
          Ben Adida

   Chair
          Manu Sporny

   Scribe
          manu

Contents

     * [5]Topics
         1. [6]Action Items
         2. [7]RDFa WG charter status
         3. [8]@vocab discussion
         4. [9]"On Hold" Test Cases 142 and 154
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Action Items

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text,
   clarifying that prefixes cannot be '_' character [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [DONE]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

   <scribe> ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof
   and @datatype spec text [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   Mark: Yes, that's done... finding link now.
   <markbirbeck>
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009N
   ov/0081.html

     [13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Nov/0081.html

   <scribe> ACTION: Someone let Ivan know what Open Document Format
   reference to use in the charter [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [DONE]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via
   mailing list [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in
   RDFa WG. [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

RDFa WG charter status

   Manu: How is the process going?

   Ivan: Formally, charter is under review
   ... Waiting to hear back on comments.
   ... It is based on those reviews that the RDFa WG is formed or not
   ... I think things are going well
   ... Want to get official vote request by the end of next week... but
   it's up to the reviewers to get back to us.
   ... The charter starts the group on Feb 1st 2010

   Manu: Should we meet in Jan?

   Ivan: No reason why we shouldn't meet informally.

   Shane: Actually, XHTML2 continues until we close the work we're
   doing.

   Ivan: So, we can meet formally in January.

@vocab discussion

   Manu: What are thoughts on moving forward on this?
   ... Do we want to ask for proposals now?

   Mark: Interesting that Toby and Ivan are implementing this stuff
   straight away.
   ... Toby implemented a way of not requiring a colon
   ... That's good, but also comes with downside of solidifying ideas
   that we may not be the direction we want to go.
   ... The whole @profile issue is still there.
   ... Maybe we can do content negotiation?
   ... Maybe the thing at the end of the URI could be anything? like
   have an RDFa document or JSON?
   ... We may want to see if we're happy with the general idea of
   prefix-less CURIE
   ... Then I think the second step is how to give somebody a list of
   how to define these tokens externally.

   Ivan: So, just to clarify - next/prev/stylesheet would all be
   considered "tokens"
   ... So, what we are trying to find is how to define those reserved
   words.
   ... XHTML is the only one that has these reserved words, SVG
   doesn't?

   Manu: Not sure that's true

   Steven: Yes, not clear in the SVG Tiny 1.2 spec.

   Manu: We might want to just do some spec text, then?

   Mark: Might be good to discuss some other points first?
   ... So, we got to a certain point with the discussion with Ben -
   whether you regard a reserved word as a relative URI or a token
   ... Both will work, if there is no token defined - it's a relative
   URI, if a token is defined, we use that.

   <Steven> I think the fact that we have relative URIs and keywords in
   the same position makes it harder to find a solution

   Mark: With this recent change to allow URIs everywhere, we've got a
   few more options.

   Manu: I'm concerned about intermediate formats.
   ... What happens when you have vocab="[17]http://example.org/terms"
   property="foo" and you can't resolve "[18]http://example.org/terms"
   ?

     [17] http://example.org/terms
     [18] http://example.org/terms

   Mark: Well, you generate a triple with
   "[19]http://example.org/terms#foo" and perhaps resolve that in the
   future.
   ... Well, Ben mentioned that "foo" would be placed in the default
   namespace... which we didn't really want.

     [19] http://example.org/terms#foo

   Ivan: my problem is a bit more fundamental than that.
   ... I'm not fully convinced that we need to go down that route...
   ... none of these solutions seem to be simple (for an implementer) -
   still not convinced that we need to do that.
   ... When we go to other dialects of SVG - I don't see what the
   problem we're trying to solve for those other languages are...

   Mark: The problem is about trying to get Microformats-style
   simplicity for markup.

   Manu: Yes

   Mark: It could potentially give RDFa the ability to do everything
   good that Microformats does in a way that is rigorous.
   ... The good things about Microformats is that it's easy to
   understand. Quick to get something up and going.
   ... The second thing that is related is that you get people like
   Google that have one uber-vocabulary.
   ... It's the ability to just stick a @profile at the top of the
   document rather than 12 namespaces, is useful for authors.

   Steven: i am definitely a big fan of simplicity of authoring.
   ... There are good proposals for automatic namespaces by Liam et. al

   Ivan: I agree with Steven on the point that @tokens become less
   important when we have a mechanism for defining prefixes/tokens.
   ... If we have that, then I think we can forget about this @token
   issue, except for the XHTML tokens, which are included.

   Mark: If there is a URI mapping defined, then using it in an
   attribute that can take a CURIE, even without a colon, is
   sufficient.

   Ivan: if we have a token/keyword without a colon, what do we do with
   it.
   Mark: So, let me give an example...

   <markbirbeck> @xmlns:dc="[20]http://xyz"

     [20] http://xyz/

   <markbirbeck> dc:creator

   <markbirbeck> dc:

   <markbirbeck> @xmlns:creator="[21]http://xyz#creator"

     [21] http://xyz/#creator

   <markbirbeck> creator:

   <markbirbeck> property="creator"

   Mark: We can still argue that you don't need @tokens or you do - but
   this is a very tiny change.

   Ivan: So, I could create a ton of xmlns:xyz for all DC terms.
   ... This make sense only if there is a way to specify those xmlns
   elsewhere.

   <markbirbeck> <html

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:Agent="[22]http://purl.org/dc/terms/Agent"

     [22] http://purl.org/dc/terms/Agent

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:Person="[23]http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person"

     [23] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:title="[24]http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/title"

     [24] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/title

   <markbirbeck> xmlns:fn="[25]http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name"

     [25] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name

   <markbirbeck> >

   <markbirbeck> <div

   <markbirbeck> about="[26]http://www.ivan-herman.net/me"

     [26] http://www.ivan-herman.net/me

   <markbirbeck> typeof="Person Agent"

   <markbirbeck> >

   <markbirbeck> <h1>

   <markbirbeck> <span property="title">Dr</span>

   <markbirbeck> <span property="fn">Ivan Herman</span>

   <markbirbeck> </h1>

   <markbirbeck> </div>

   <markbirbeck> </html>

   Mark: if we go for this small change, it still doesn't matter how we
   get those URI mappings.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to speak for being able to define new
   reserved words

   Shane: I don't have a problem with this @token proposal.
   ... Without having an external mechanism, it's not terribly useful.
   ... In todays spec, we have these things called "reserved words"
   ... Those only work for @rel/@rev
   ... That's fine.
   ... So, we're extending these to all CURIE-aware attributes?

   Mark: Not necessarily - we have this new mechanism for @property for
   resolving reserved words/CURIEs.

   Shane: So, putting on my DAISY hat, they want to be able to define
   reserved words.
   ... We still need to be able to have a way to change the default
   collection of reserved words.

   Manu: We still don't have a solution for defining extended reserved
   words.

   <ShaneM> aside: what if I have multiple profile references and there
   are collisions after taking the union of the prefix mappings? Last
   takes precedence?

   Ivan: Let's say we have a @profile - we could pull @tokens in from
   an external document.

   Mark: yes, agree with Ivan
   ... With this minor change, it helps us solve the other
   Microformats-like-markup problem.

   <ShaneM> I want a "prefix import mechanism" not a "namespace import
   mechanism"

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say that I dont want to rely on these
   external namespace proposals. we are too tied to namespaces already!

"On Hold" Test Cases 142 and 154

   <scribe> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

   <ShaneM> I suddenly grok why @prefix is a bad name

   <scribe> ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external
   vocabulary documents [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to generate spec text for pulling in external
   vocabulary documents. [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

   <ShaneM> @cmap="token URI"

   <ShaneM> where cmap == curie mapping

   [30]http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/test-suite/

     [30] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/test-suite/

   <p xmlns:xml="[31]http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace"
   property="xml:test">Test</p>

     [31] http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace

   Manu: Thoughts?

   Shane: keep it on hold.

   Ivan: Maybe we could disallow it in the spec?

   Mark: It's an edge case that we don't refer to.
   Manu: So, we'll keep it on hold and I'll contact LibXML developers
   to fix the library, once it is fixed, we will approve the test case.

   <scribe> ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about
   TC 142. [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

   <span xmlns:test="[33]http://example.org/error/"
   property="testŀ:test">Test</span>

     [33] http://example.org/error/

   Ivan: So I can only have ASCII characters there?

   Shane: Yes.

   Manu: Ok, so this is an invalid XHTML test, but we will be
   revisiting this issue for HTML4 and HTML5.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to generate spec text for pulling in external
   vocabulary documents. [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to get in touch with LibXML developers about TC
   142. [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [NEW] ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for @token and @prefix
   [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Mark to generate spec text for pulling in external
   vocabulary documents [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to aggressively push review of test cases via
   mailing list [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to try and find other interested parties in
   RDFa WG. [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/29-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2009/10/22-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to ask somebody to draft errata text, clarifying
   that prefixes cannot be '_' character [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
   [DONE] ACTION: Mark to author URIs in @about, @rel, @rev, @typeof
   and @datatype spec text [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: Someone let Ivan know what Open Document Format
   reference to use in the charter [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf


Received on Thursday, 3 December 2009 19:02:00 GMT

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