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meeting record: 2009-04-30 RDFa Telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:28:09 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20090430122611.053eae28@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The minutes of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon are now
available as

   http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html

Thanks to Michael Hausenblas for scribing.

A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

30 Apr 2009

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous: [4]2009-04-16

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
          Ben Adida, Steven Pemberton

   Chair
          Manu Sporny

   Scribe
          Michael

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. RDFa Updates (RDFa use cases, HTML5 micro-data thread on
            WHATWG)
         3. OWL2 Manchester Syntax eschewing CURIEs - need to
            comment (Shane)
         4. Framing the @profile discussion
     * Summary of Action Items
     ____________________________________________________

Action Items

   ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with
   screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
   [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: Manu to update wiki page on current consensus for @prefix
   [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   <msporny>
   [14]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Alternate-prefix-declaration-mechanism

     [14] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Alternate-prefix-declaration-mechanism

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [CONTINUES]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [CONTINUES]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

RDFa Updates (RDFa use cases, HTML5 micro-data thread on WHATWG)

   Michael: Re RDFa validator

   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009A
   pr/0089.html

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0089.html

   looking
   [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/#rdfa-attribu
   tes

     [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/#rdfa-attributes

   someone did href=[foaf:Person]

   Michael: I wondered if we can write a validator that checks that
   each of the attribute values is of a correct type; CURIE, URI, etc.

   Mark: no, I don't think this is easy
   ... property="http:..." would be flagged as a CURIE but then later
   you'd notice that there was no 'http' prefix defined

   <mhausenblas> @datatype="[23]http://www.....org/xml/schema/string"

     [23] http://www.....org/xml/schema/string

   <mhausenblas> http: is the token

   <inserted> scribenick: ralph

   Mark: it's almost impossible to distinguish

   Michael: but the URL schemes are registered

   <mhausenblas> coming from
   [24]http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html

     [24] http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html

   Michael: so perhaps one could note when registered schemes are
   mis-used as prefixes

   Mark: sure, a validator could be as strict as it wants
   ... but there CURIE spec does not disallow using 'http' as a prefix,
   nor any other scheme type
   ... and I'd oppose such a restriction

   Shane: I've seen people choose to define 'http' as a prefix; it's a
   useful workaround
   ... I consider the ability to define http as a prefix is a feature

   Manu: it's a nice trick but I don't think we should be recommending
   it
   ... Michael's question is 'what advice should a validator give?'
   ... the validator could just note when a registered scheme is used
   as a prefix, not disallow it

   Shane: it's more important to flag cases where a CURIE prefix is
   used but never defined

   Michael: I could validate strings starting with http: against the
   HTTP URI syntax spec
   ... a warning or hint -- not error -- might help for other
   registered schemes, even though there may not be many that would
   accidentally be used by a document author

   Mark: if the validator wants to complain about registered schemes as
   prefixes, then it should complain as soon as it sees xmlns:http=

   Shane: it would be fine to say "This prefix has not been defined; it
   looks like you're trying to use a URI. Here's what to do instead
   ..."

   <msporny> [25]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-use-cases

     [25] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-use-cases

   msporny: we have some 25 UC now

   <msporny>
   [26]http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/0
   19374.html

     [26] http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-April/019374.html

   msporny: people are discussing UC

   markbirbeck: RDFa works already fine in HTML5
   ... we continue to support people that want to use it
   ... and as a matter of fact people are using it

   msporny: there seems to be a shift from non-data mechanism awareness
   to data awareness in HTML5

   markbirbeck: it is clear that the authority is here, in the end
   ... and we're happy to give them advise *how* to implement it in
   HTML5
   ... RDFa has solved the decentralised voc management issue
   ... and one should encourage HTML5 not to become incompatible

   ShaneM: RDFa helps HTML5 to support the Semantic Web

   <ShaneM> RDFa helps EVERYTHING support the semantic web

   Michael: there are other routes as well, just to note, for example
   [27]http://ld2sd.deri.org/lod-ng-tutorial/

     [27] http://ld2sd.deri.org/lod-ng-tutorial/

   ShaneM: next time when Ben and Steven are around we might continue
   this

   ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case activity.
   [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

   see also [29]http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/lod-ng-tutorial/

     [29] http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/lod-ng-tutorial/

OWL2 Manchester Syntax eschewing CURIEs - need to comment (Shane)

   ShaneM: OWL WG decided not to use CURIEs
   ... rational was not clear, sad, though

   <markbirbeck> One more 'rdfa update':
   [30]http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/04/23/more-rdfa-g
   oodness-from-uk-government-web-sites

     [30] http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/04/23/more-rdfa-goodness-from-uk-government-web-sites

   ShaneM: seems there was a misunderstanding with CURIEs (re XMLNS)
   ... but that will change
   ... they invented an abbreviated URI mechanism

   <msporny> OWL2 Manchester Syntax document:
   [31]http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-manchester-syntax-20090421/

     [31] http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-manchester-syntax-20090421/

   ShaneM: but not a CURIE, funny enough
   ... XHTML2 WG will send in a LC comment to object re this

   <msporny> +1 for commenting on CURIEs

   <mhausenblas>+1

   ShaneM: will prepare a comment for XHTML2 WG, RDFa TF may join
   ... due on 12 May

   <Ralph> [32]OWL-WG comment on CURIE [Sandro Hawke 2009-04-09]

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0007.html

   <Ralph> [33]Various issues with using CURIEs in OWL Bijan Parsia
   2009-04-09]

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2009AprJun/0009.html

   markbirbeck: RIF also refers to CURIEs

   <Ralph> (the SPARQL REC is dated January 2008)

   Michael: the new SPARQL Update might change this ;)

Framing the @profile discussion

   <msporny>
   [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009A
   pr/0082.html

     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Apr/0082.html

   -> [35]http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles

     [35] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles

   ShaneM: I think we need to define the requirements as well.
   ... we're trying to figure out a way to define CURIE rules external
   to the document.

   markbirbeck: I agree.

   <ShaneM> where part of those rules include prefix mappings, and part
   include defining additional reserved words

   markbirbeck: Essentially, we want to get the same simplicity that
   Microformats has.
   ... We might have a second use case - importing a collection of new
   tokens.

   ShaneM: but you could do it with another mechanism.
   ... That is a different problem than what we're currently
   discussing.

   markbirbeck: that is true, but where this is heading - how do we set
   ourselves up for a future that we know is coming?
   ... we need to make sure the rules get placed into a separate graph.

   ShaneM: As long as we're generating triples, we should be good.

   markbirbeck: Are you saying that the external import mechanism is
   more important?

   ShaneM: I think they're different, not tied to one another.

   ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for
   extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [recorded
   in [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

   <Ralph> [37]SPARQL PN_LOCAL BNF (allowed chars in prefixed names)

     [37] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to define a set of requirements and questions for
   extending CURIEs in an external document on the RDFa wiki. [recorded
   in [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to talk with Ben about recent WHATWG use case
   activity. [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/30-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
   namespace [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to update wiki page on current consensus for
   @prefix [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [End of minutes]
     ____________________________________________________

     [48] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/16-rdfa-minutes.html#action15


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